What's the Point of Religion?

[Leyla Shen]

No, wait! That's right—it's meaningless; and something you experience!

Wow. I'm enlightened.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

to watch with hostile intent, lie in wait for

as a means to an end.

why get out of your chair

Do you know what a property is?

Wow. I'm enlightened. (the end of craving, nothing more, nothing less)

ahhh! Some horror films are too much. Too much!

Do YOU know what enlightenment is LEYLA!?

I do! ME! it's all me!

[Diebert van Rhijn]

BTW guys, impermanence doesn't mean anything in itself, it's a reference, a name, for something you've -guess what -experienced.

No, a term like impermanence actually refers only to itself: the lack of "it" -- even its own. That's why it's beyond experiences: it's empty experience: none experience. Whatever it is you sense you're experiencing: it's another form of attachment. Experience is just a stab at some brief form of permanency: a beautiful trick.

[Dennis Mahar]

seeker,
your argument all along has been stop thinking, stop doing etc...based on impermanence.
to engage in such is meaningless because of impermanence.
the action you promote in that understanding is to sit in the chair most of the day with the eyes closed.

that's an existential argument.

the form of an existential argument that renders insight :

to sit in the chair most of the day with the eyes closed.

in order to (Means to an end)
for the sake of which (To what end)

What is the possibility in it?

[Leyla Shen]

emptiness is known as the theory of no-theory and the profound experience of it is experiencing no-theory where a metaphysical theory one might have evaporates and is seen as empty and meaningless.

It doesn't replace any theory though.

Cogniting Nietzsche and his 'God is Dead' declaration opens it all up.

Just like Nietzsche's search with the lantern and accusations of "murdering" god does not replace "god" as need, as reality, as sun to orbit around.

Yeah, reminds me of another great man:

The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself—MARX

God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. Yet his shadow still looms. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?

Frankly, I'm not very hopeful. One does not have to look far to see why!

[Leyla Shen]

to watch with hostile intent, lie in wait for

as a means to an end.

why get out of your chair

Do you know what a property is?

Wow. I'm enlightened. (the end of craving, nothing more, nothing less)

ahhh! Some horror films are too much. Too much!

Do YOU know what enlightenment is LEYLA!?

I do! ME! it's all me!

Says the man preaching enlightenment. You're a fucking idiot!

[SeekerOfWisdom]

in order to (Means to an end)
for the sake of which (To what end)

What is the possibility in it?

You must have gotten confused, being invincible and all you probably don't know about it.

What's the possibility in sitting after the legs ache from standing? A desire? Motive and opportunity?

What's the possibility in resting when tired, a desire? Motive and opportunity?

See what I mean? It's now attachment to rest.

Your arguments depends on a few parts, 'most of the day', and 'chair'.
It seems to only be against one topic ( I don't think the topic is napping) - it's against not working a job of hard labor?

You're doing this wrong, but I'm not".

Whatever it is you sense you're experiencing: it's another form of attachment.

I've been blinded all this time. There's no experience, I'm just attached.


And Leyla you are the most egotistical self-obssessed person I've ever come across, asks questions only, but has no answers, holds a grudge unceasingly coming up with insults, while spouting about non-attachment and your own intelligence, fucking crazy bitch!

No wonder your alone, eh? No one likes an intelligent* bitch* do they? ;)

Excellent. I expect you'll have no trouble answering my last question, then!

Answer the questions.

Answer the questions Leyla. You've had enough of being a girl, haven't you!

to watch with hostile intent, lie in wait for

The fucking horror movie! It's too much!

[Leyla Shen]

So in enlightened you can't even devise an insult based on evidence.

But, well—what use does a person who has attained the end of craving have for anything resembling truth, eh?

[Leyla Shen]

Lol

Gottal love that edit function!

I think it should be banned—you know, since only the egotistical use it...

[Leyla Shen]

PS: You're still a fucking idiot!

[SeekerOfWisdom]

No evidence that you are self-obsessed with your intelligence? No evidence you ask questions, yet avoid actually saying anything? No evidence you hold grudges while spouting non-attachment?

You are correct, none. The only thing I have evidence for is that you're a crazy resentful bitch.

ME on the other hand. Definitions are suited around me, designed for me. Non-attachment is based on me, sculpted around my actions. Along with modesty, intelligence, compassion and honesty.

You're confused Leyla, everyone else who uses an edit button is egotistical, LOL, if you were to do it, it would be a sign of higher knowledge.

[Leyla Shen]

I told you what I mean. Don't tell me you haven't noticed how the majority of folk cling to meaningless ideas about life/reality. I'm not asserting any theory about how this came about, it's origin or beginning, I'm just saying such inquiries are not only meaningless but are creating false conceptual boundaries then assuming a narrow view to try and answer these inquiries. This is based in negation of false imaginations, not asserting them.

Haven't you noticed how you never actually say anything?

What's a false imagination?

[Leyla Shen]

You're confused Leyla, everyone else who uses an edit button is egotistical, LOL,

Yes. Wild, unsubstantiated generalisations are really something, aren't they.....................

[SeekerOfWisdom]

No evidence you ask questions, yet avoid actually saying anything?

Haven't you noticed how you never actually say anything?

What's a false imagination?

A rational person doesn't ask a fucking idiot questions, do they?

In primary school the first thing a kid calls when the teacher walks up is "they started it!".

How about an end? Wouldn't it be great? I can't imagine why you would disagree. I never allude insultingly to you, you never allude insultingly to me, an end this pointless non-discussion. Haven't picked up on the pattern here?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself.

This is a good quote to get back on topic. What does he mean with "moving around himself"? Moving around a "true self" or "higher ideals"? Religion used to explain the world in terms we could relate to but in the last centuries it's closer to some form of scientific materialism which tells us how things "behave" and what's important because we can relate to that better. the old religion has become a mixture of traditionalism, art and mysticism. So now we have instead of Spirit and spirits the modern Object and objects?

[Dennis Mahar]

seeker,

it's against not working a job of hard labor?

well yeah,
not working a job of hard labour is a means to an end.
to what end.
in order for that end means not working a job of hard labour.

I'm assuming the end is contentment.

there's another existential argument that contentment is an end in itself and doesn't require means to that end.
it doesn't require pursuing in order for it.

People think they have to do this and that in order to, as a means to an end, find contentment.

Perhaps contentment is an always/already possibility without a reason.

It's clear people use each other like equipment in order to, as a means to an end, furnish their own ends.

[Leyla Shen]

A rational person doesn't ask a fucking idiot questions, do they?

Sure, why not? There’s a definite relation between an idiot and the ability to think and coherently express ideas. Given this appropriate and relevant context (you know, that thing we call an internet forum which values thinking and the expression of coherent ideas), at the very least, the claim provides an opportunity for the claimant to proven right or wrong. The “fucking” qualifier is for emphasis, really (since I don’t know whether or not you fuck, nor do I think it’s relevant). Therefore, the unreasonable (egoist) individual does not provide the same opportunity. Instead, he claims purely rooted in his own egoism, such as in the case of calling someone a bitch or a slut. It’s possible that you may be able to prove the claim that someone is a bitch, but I do not hold any hope for you in that regard.

In primary school the first thing a kid calls when the teacher walks up is "they started it!".

Relevance? You need a primary school teacher to discipline you because you don’t how to behave on this forum?

How about an end? Wouldn't it be great? I can't imagine why you would disagree. I never allude insultingly to you, you never allude insultingly to me, an end this pointless non-discussion. Haven't picked up on the pattern here?

Have you picked up on the pattern?

I've detailed the essence of the solution above. Why don’t you think about it for a bit and make a decision as to whether you value the same thing the forum hosts do.

~

Diebert, definitely!

Look forward to picking up on it tonight.

[Dennis Mahar]

This is a good quote to get back on topic. What does he mean with "moving around himself"? Moving around a "true self" or "higher ideals"? Religion used to explain the world in terms we could relate to but in the last centuries it's closer to some form of scientific materialism which tells us how things "behave" and what's important because we can relate to that better. the old religion has become a mixture of traditionalism, art and mysticism. So now we have instead of Spirit and spirits the modern Object and objects?

Marx's influence was Kant.
The argument seems to be the self is constitutive in some way under a conceptual regime that becomes normative..


Should we be ever in a 'bending the knee' mode appeasing God. (Sun)
or
A law unto ourselves, making humanity a 'family formula' and attending to the family's material needs.

Either way its a phenomenon of 'herding machinery' that a self gets constituted in as a 'fitting in' like a round peg in a square hole.
cookie cutting machines churning out gingerbread men.

[Russell Parr]

the old religion has become a mixture of traditionalism, art and mysticism. So now we have instead of Spirit and spirits the modern Object and objects?

It certainly looks that way. Modern religion and capitalism has made way for the prominence of materialism in today's societies. What interests me is that it appears that there was a transition in history when the characters and stories of religion ceased to be taught as merely symbols, and then became literal historical records. Was it by some other cause than vested interests (i.e. egomaniacs) that Christianity was constructed by "borrowing" different aspects of various spiritual, astrological, and numerological teachings of old, and literalizing them?

By removing God from ourselves, and therefore our divinity, children raised under such teachings undergo subtle yet profound trauma, in which uncertainty and pessimism plagues the rest of their lives. Having learned that we are all 'born sinners', there is the lack of confidence in our own thinking. In placing our authority infinitely beyond ourselves, there is the lack of motivation to cause truly beneficial change.

I think the point of old religion was to unite, educate, and enlighten our ancient, primitive societies. The point of modern religion, as we now know it, is to create a docile, easily manipulated people for elitist interests.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

not working a job of hard labour is a means to an end.
to what end.
in order for that end means not working a job of hard labour.

I'm assuming the end is contentment.

Wouldn't working a job of hard labour be a means to an end. So either way, doing it or not doing it, is a means to an end?

Perhaps contentment is an always/already possibility without a reason.

Yeah, that possibility is empty of nagging desire. d said sufficiency. Contentment can be described as a kind of joy, the same way comfort isn't exactly joy but is sufficient.
Either way This is as good as it gets and I'm more than ok with living it.

I can see a tradie walking around the town centre with a half metre length of toilet paper clinging to his shoe.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Though wakefulness/meditation of the sort 'Fearful' when fearing and 'Resentful' when resenting, is what Buddha describes as "Right Attentiveness" in the four groups, contemplation of body,feeling,mind,mind-objects. It seems you are 'against' this in the sense that you see it as a means to an end?

[Dennis Mahar]

Wouldn't working a job of hard labour be a means to an end. So either way, doing it or not doing it, is a means to an end?

looks like it.
We're throwing around the word 'meaning' a lot and 'meaningless'.
so we better take a look at what these words signify.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Well really, they signify the same thing don't you think. But I'm sure that's not exactly what you meant.
Looks like it's going around in a circle doesn't it, infinite regress?

Let me guess, I can see how this leads to a demonstration of dependent origination.

[Dennis Mahar]

Let me guess, I can see how this leads to a demonstration of dependent origination.

Bingo!
top o' the class.

Harking back to Hakuin.
a 'canoe' is a set of options carried out in order for the ultimate sake of 'far shore'.
a means to an end to what end.

Zen thinking is a kind of thinking that thinks about thinking.

Arriving at suchness.
This is It.
It is what it is and it isn't what it isn't.
Nothing is broken.

Let's say someone requests to meet you and you dutifully show up at appointed place at correct time.
That someone turns up 30 minutes later than appointed time.
What happens?

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Depends who you are. (Can't get around without using that word can you?)
I wouldn't mention it. Either way they might give a half hearted apology and that would be the end of it.