The Nature of Religion

[David Quinn]

David,

Was it a violent rape by a stranger, or by a date that pushed his advances too far?

Why would you want to hear about my rapes?

To see in what they have affected your overall views on men. It looks like they have. I too would be resentful of men in your situation.

Some men are resentful of the way that women constantly interfere with them in terms of their skimpy clothing, overt sexual displays and lack of conscience. They feel they can't even go down the street without being intruded upon in this way. They can become bitter and want to lash out at the entire female race. Much like what you are doing in reverse.

I think you have taken the rapist mentality on board, but expressing it in a female manner.

I was actually violently raped by a man who I had not met before, and who was hanging out with his girlfriend that night. I told very few people about this. I was also in similar situations with two men that were just friends (not dates), who were not able to consummate the rape only because of how hard I fought them, but who were still able to put me through hell for more than five minutes. One of them actually apologized later. Oh, and the first rapist also apologized, as if that would help.

My ex-husband was physically and emotionally abusive.

Oh, and now that you've made me think about my past, I also had two sexual abuse experiences, which were not quite rape, when I was between 11 and 13.

As to my kid, she was raped by a cousin of mine, in my agegroup.

That is sad to hear. No one should be subjected to such things, particularly the young.

The way you describe things makes it sound like you're living in a hell hole.

It's only hell if you're a woman. My society is very male chauvinistic.

Around here, the women are all glowing and having the time of their lives.

-

[Ignius]

Fuck, when I was about 6-8 my grandmother would fondle my penis to make sure that it was healthy. Plus, she would undress in front of me - we slept in the same room. Do you think that this left marks? I don't think that I have any resentments towards her because of those incidence.

Some men are resentful of the way that women constantly interfere with them in terms of their skimpy clothing,

That's weird. I enjoy it!

[Shahrazad]

David,

Sher: Why would you want to hear about my rapes?

David: To see in what they have affected your overall views on men. It looks like they have. I too would be resentful of men in your situation.

Oh, then maybe you should've asked why I resent men. It isn't because of the rape and sexual abuses. You may find this hard to believe, but the men who did the most severe damage to me, who plunged me into the deepest depressions imaginable, were not the rapists / abusers. They were the ones who had the closest relationships with me. And I'll spare you the details, but will mention that I am aware of how my own attachments created a lot of the suffering.

However, my view of men is not limited by my personal experiences. It is also formed by all the couples I have come in contact with during my life: friends, family, workmates. Only about 10% of males in my country are faithful to their wives or girlfriends. And this inferior moral position of men is something that men themselves recognize -- at least to themselves. For example, my dad is much more suspicious and paranoid about men hanging around my daughters than I am. And I heard my brother advise my kid when she was smaller to never trust a man. As men, they are more aware of the moral bankruptcy of their gender than I could ever be.

I think you have taken the rapist mentality on board, but expressing it in a female manner.

And that is a good thing, because if I expressed it in a male manner, I'd be lashing out.

Around here, the women are all glowing and having the time of their lives.

Are their husbands faithful to them? Do men never leave their middle-aged wives for young girls? Maybe you're right and Australia is the place to live.

ETA: Maybe I can ask you a more "objective" question: What percentage of males who hang out in bars and nightclubs where women can be picked up, are married?

Anybody else who lives in Australia can answer the last question.

[Ataraxia]

Some men are resentful of the way that women constantly interfere with them in terms of their skimpy clothing, overt sexual displays and lack of conscience.

Who? Fred Niles,George Pell and Sheik Hillali?

Maybe they should grow up too.

[rebecca702]

Perhaps a different, more amusing test should be conducted. If a person hasn't attained enlightenment by the time they are 60, they will be given 10 million dollars, a mansion, free medical care and unfettered access to all available pleasures. Those who are enlightened will be given a small hut with the bare necessities and nothing more.

Everybody would get what they want!

Some men are resentful of the way that women constantly interfere with them in terms of their skimpy clothing, overt sexual displays and lack of conscience.

Who? Fred Niles,George Pell and Sheik Hillali?

Maybe they should grow up too.

I understand this resentful viewpoint. If a man gets to a point where he realizes he doesn't need to have anything to do with women, their bodies flaunting around every corner arousing his body is going to irritate him. It's a form of violence - how can he defend against it besides to wear a blindfold?

[Ataraxia]

I understand this resentful viewpoint. If a man gets to a point where he realizes he doesn't need to have anything to do with women, their bodies flaunting around every corner arousing his body is going to irritate him. It's a form of violence - how can he defend against it besides to wear a blindfold?

Surely the man who has transcended lures of the flesh wouldn't need to blame the 'Jezebel'.

It's positively Victorian.

[David Quinn]

Some men are resentful of the way that women constantly interfere with them in terms of their skimpy clothing, overt sexual displays and lack of conscience.

Who? Fred Niles,George Pell and Sheik Hillali?

Maybe they should grow up too.

I was specifically thinking of the Lebanese males who go nuts at the sight of bikini-clad women at Bondi beach. But yes, it is an immature reaction by men who have allowed a borrowed ideology to suppress their sexual desires and who find themselves impotent, because of the ideology, to do anything about it.

My point, though, was that Shahrazad's stated views on men are of the same calibre. Not in the sense of her being forced to suppress her desires by an ideology, but that they express the same feelings of impotency.

Surely the man who has transcended lures of the flesh wouldn't need to blame the 'Jezebel'.

It's positively Victorian.

You seem rather animated about this issue. You don't believe in things like modesty, civility, respect for others, taking responsibility for one's actions, etc? Or are these just outdated "Victorian" values as well?

-

[rebecca702]

I understand this resentful viewpoint. If a man gets to a point where he realizes he doesn't need to have anything to do with women, their bodies flaunting around every corner arousing his body is going to irritate him. It's a form of violence - how can he defend against it besides to wear a blindfold?

Surely the man who has transcended lures of the flesh wouldn't need to blame the 'Jezebel'.

It's positively Victorian.

It's nothing about blaming, it's just an observation.

[Ataraxia]

You seem rather animated about this issue. You don't believe in things like modesty, civility, respect for others,

Not really animated.Moreso suprised.Sure,I'd prefer if people exhibit those traits.I don't feel particularly resentful or violated if they don't though.

taking responsibility for one's actions, etc?

I definately value that.Thats why I found your comment unusual."Pell-like".

[David Quinn]

David,

Sher: Why would you want to hear about my rapes?

David: To see in what they have affected your overall views on men. It looks like they have. I too would be resentful of men in your situation.

Oh, then maybe you should've asked why I resent men.

I might have done, but your emphasis on men's propensity to rape and murder as being a major part of the problem somewhat distracted me.

However, my view of men is not limited by my personal experiences. It is also formed by all the couples I have come in contact with during my life: friends, family, workmates. Only about 10% of males in my country are faithful to their wives or girlfriends. And this inferior moral position of men is something that men themselves recognize -- at least to themselves. For example, my dad is much more suspicious and paranoid about men hanging around my daughters than I am. And I heard my brother advise my kid when she was smaller to never trust a man. As men, they are more aware of the moral bankruptcy of their gender than I could ever be.

The women in your country would have to be just as complicit in the "moral bankruptcy", given that it takes two to commit adultery. Perhaps your father and brother recognize how easily women are swayed by male sexual advances ....?

I think you have taken the rapist mentality on board, but expressing it in a female manner.

And that is a good thing, because if I expressed it in a male manner, I'd be lashing out.

But you are lashing out.

Around here, the women are all glowing and having the time of their lives.

Are their husbands faithful to them? Do men never leave their middle-aged wives for young girls?

I don't have any figures, but my sense is that it is quite rare. The divorce rate in Australia is currently around 40%, and my own experience tells me that most of those divorces don't involve men going off with young girls. It usually involves women of their own age-group.

Normally, in this country, a middle-aged man would have to be rich or famous to attract the attention of young girls. Unless he is a skilled seducer, the average bozo rarely has a hope. Company bosses and college professors might have the odd fling with the young girls they mentor, I don't know.

ETA: Maybe I can ask you a more "objective" question: What percentage of males who hang out in bars and nightclubs where women can be picked up, are married?

I haven't been in that environment for many years, so I can't really say.

-

[David Quinn]

You seem rather animated about this issue. You don't believe in things like modesty, civility, respect for others,

Not really animated.Moreso suprised.Sure,I'd prefer if people exhibit those traits.I don't feel particularly resentful or violated if they don't though.

Let's say the government decided to release a toxin into the air or waterways which causes men to feel sexually aroused by pineapples (due to lobbying, perhaps, by multi-national pineapple companies). Would you feel resentful or violated then?

taking responsibility for one's actions, etc?

I definately value that.Thats why I found your comment unusual."Pell-like".

Engaging in psychological exploration is a speciality of Pell's?

-

[Ataraxia]

You seem rather animated about this issue. You don't believe in things like modesty, civility, respect for others,

Not really animated.Moreso suprised.Sure,I'd prefer if people exhibit those traits.I don't feel particularly resentful or violated if they don't though.

Let's say the government decided to release a toxin into the air or waterways which causes men to feel sexually aroused by pineapples (due to lobbying, perhaps, by multi-national pineapple companies). Would you feel resentful or violated then?

It seems to me you have this hypothetical around the wrong way.I get the impression you would like to see your will/normative view in regard to women's modesty enacted by government/society.

If your hypothetical was even possible I suppose I would be resentful,it would need to be a powerful toxin.The thing is i can control my urge to lust after women just because they are wearing short skirts etc,in fact it very rarely arises--can't you?

If anything I suspect it may be even healthier for society to allow women to wear what they wish. It seems to me the 'covering up' makes man more uncontrollably lustful--for example the lebanese men you mention--I have no empirical evidence for this however.Westerner-men are fairly desensitised to it by now.

Engaging in psychological exploration is a speciality of Pell's?

No,although he may claim it to be.Being resentful about women's modesty is,though.

[Shahrazad]

David,

I might have done, but your emphasis on men's propensity to rape and murder as being a major part of the problem somewhat distracted me.

I think the emphasis was because rape and murder are easy qualities to describe, and few would argue that they are much more common in males.

The women in your country would have to be just as complicit in the "moral bankruptcy", given that it takes two to commit adultery.

You and I seem to disagree on what constitutes adultery. If a married man sleeps with a single woman, he is betraying his wife. Who is the single woman betraying?

Perhaps your father and brother recognize how easily women are swayed by male sexual advances ....?

It's more like, they recognize the great lengths that men will go to in order to have sex with a woman or girl, because they have probably done it themselves.

David: I think you have taken the rapist mentality on board, but expressing it in a female manner.

Sher: And that is a good thing, because if I expressed it in a male manner, I'd be lashing out.

David: But you are lashing out.

Not in a violent way. Or do you deem that I am hurting someone?

I don't have any figures, but my sense is that it is quite rare. The divorce rate in Australia is currently around 40%, and my own experience tells me that most of those divorces don't involve men going off with young girls. It usually involves women of their own age-group.

You didn't say anything about the cheating rate. Do you know men that probably are faithful to their wives? Because I have asked that question here, and few people can name more than one.

[David Quinn]

Let's say the government decided to release a toxin into the air or waterways which causes men to feel sexually aroused by pineapples (due to lobbying, perhaps, by multi-national pineapple companies). Would you feel resentful or violated then?

It seems to me you have this hypothetical around the wrong way.I get the impression you would like to see your will/normative view in regard to women's modesty enacted by government/society.

Not in the slightest.

If your hypothetical was even possible I suppose I would be resentful,it would need to be a powerful toxin.The thing is i can control my urge to lust after women just because they are wearing short skirts etc,in fact it very rarely arises--can't you?

I've already hinted at it and now it looks like I will have to spell it out explicitly: What I've been talking about has nothing to do with my own views on these matters.

To continue: Suppose that you were unable to resist the toxin and that you found yourself being overwhelmed with sexual desire for pineapples, and suppose quite naturally that you started blaming the government for your predicament, but you were greeted with cries that "you aren't mature enough", that you are "blaming the Jezebel", that your views were "positively Victorian", etc, what would your response be then?

-

[David Quinn]

The women in your country would have to be just as complicit in the "moral bankruptcy", given that it takes two to commit adultery.

You and I seem to disagree on what constitutes adultery. If a married man sleeps with a single woman, he is betraying his wife. Who is the single woman betraying?

The wife.

David: I think you have taken the rapist mentality on board, but expressing it in a female manner.

Sher: And that is a good thing, because if I expressed it in a male manner, I'd be lashing out.

David: But you are lashing out.

Not in a violent way. Or do you deem that I am hurting someone?

Advocating the elimination of all men isn't a violent act?

I don't have any figures, but my sense is that it is quite rare. The divorce rate in Australia is currently around 40%, and my own experience tells me that most of those divorces don't involve men going off with young girls. It usually involves women of their own age-group.

You didn't say anything about the cheating rate. Do you know men that probably are faithful to their wives? Because I have asked that question here, and few people can name more than one.

I know quite a few, but I suppose it could be argued that the people I know are strongly interested in ethics and philosophy and therefore count among the exceptions in society - which would be a fair argument.

I'm not sure that the cheating rate can be accurately measured, given that it is a clandestine activity with a lot of deception involved.

-

[Dan Rowden]

What sort of moron would trust fidelity statistics? You must be joking.

[Ataraxia]

I've already hinted at it and now it looks like I will have to spell it out explicitly: What I've been talking about has nothing to do with my own views on these matters.

You have a view about womens modesty.You've already expressed it.Whether it is view on you own behalf or on behalf of those' weaker Lebanese-guys' it is view nevertheless.

To continue: Suppose that you were unable to resist the toxin and that you found yourself being overwhelmed with sexual desire for pineapples, and suppose quite naturally that you started blaming the government for your predicament, but you were greeted with cries that "you aren't mature enough", that you are "blaming the Jezebel", that your views were "positively Victorian", etc, what would your response be then?

-

David,the hypothetical doesn't properly fit the matter at hand.In real life you and I can resist the 'toxin' of girls in short skirts--it is not inexorable as a real toxin would be.Moreover the 'toxin' was never introduced by a government in the first place. We have become more liberal/laissez fare,and women have just elected to suit themselves in regard to dress sense.Some choose to dress immodestly some don't.In my opinion this is step forward from the Victorian dress,and the Burkah.

The 'Lebanese guys' can 'resist the toxin';they just chose not to(or a caused to be that way, if you like)--you yourself are proof that it is resistable.

Surely they are the ones who make short skirts a 'toxin' and are the group that needs to re-evaluate their position.To you and I they are just girls in short skirts.

So yes,I still do get the impression you are blaming the Jezebel to some extent.

What was it Sheik Hillali called these types of women a few months ago?-- "Uncovered meat"--something like that.

[David Quinn]

To continue: Suppose that you were unable to resist the toxin and that you found yourself being overwhelmed with sexual desire for pineapples, and suppose quite naturally that you started blaming the government for your predicament, but you were greeted with cries that "you aren't mature enough", that you are "blaming the Jezebel", that your views were "positively Victorian", etc, what would your response be then?

David,the hypothetical doesn't properly fit the matter at hand.In real life you and I can resist the 'toxin' of girls in short skirts--it is not inexorable as a real toxin would be.

If you don't have the appropriate anti-bodies, then the toxin will indeed be just as inexorable. Men are driven to extreme acts like suicide, rape and throwing children off bridges because of it.

Moreover the 'toxin' was never introduced by a government in the first place.

It has been introduced by something far more powerful and relentless - namely, evolution. It's not something that can be reversed with a simple act of legislation.

We have become more liberal/laissez fare,and women have just elected to suit themselves in regard to dress sense.Some choose to dress immodestly some don't.In my opinion this is step forward from the Victorian dress,and the Burkah.

A pretty small step, though. Miniscule, in fact. A genuinely significant step would be a quantum increase in conscious responsibility on the part of females, and, of course, males. A growing up from the all-pervailing adolescence that currently afflicts the human race. We haven't really left the Victorian era in that regard.

The 'Lebanese guys' can 'resist the toxin';they just chose not to(or a caused to be that way, if you like)--you yourself are proof that it is resistable.

Surely they are the ones who make short skirts a 'toxin' and are the group that needs to re-evaluate their position.To you and I they are just girls in short skirts.

The power of evolution cannot be ignored. Men are visual creatures; the mere sight of a pair of legs is enough to cause chemicals to surge through their bodies. It is why pornography doesn't need any storylines, or context, or decent acting. The sheer sight of naked bodies and sexual interplay is enough.

So yes,I still do get the impression you are blaming the Jezebel to some extent.

I never think in terms of blame. However, I do encourage women to take more responsibility for their own behaviour, just as I do men.

What was it Sheik Hillali called these types of women a few months ago?-- "Uncovered meat"--something like that.

There is a good deal of truth to his observation - and I say this as someone who, as a rule, despises Islamic religion. It speaks to the passiveness and decorativeness which characterizes so much of a woman's life.

-

[Shahrazad]

David,

Sher: If a married man sleeps with a single woman, he is betraying his wife. Who is the single woman betraying?

David: The wife.

Some woman might indeed feel bad that the wife is getting the short end of the stick, but she has never met the wife or knows who she is, therefore there is no real betrayal. She never swore she would be faithful to the wife.

Sher: Not in a violent way. Or do you deem that I am hurting someone?

David: Advocating the elimination of all men isn't a violent act?

No, for several reasons.

First, I didn't really say I want to eliminate living men; just that in the future, we may want to keep the Y chromosome from spreading, so that new men would not be born. Killing men who are already alive would be cruel.

Second, expressing ideas in a forum that at most a couple of dozen people read is a far cry from actually committing a violent act. If I had the power to make significant changes in the world, even if just in my corner of the world, I'd have the responsibility of using it very wisely. And I would certainly take into account what the masses want.

I know quite a few, but I suppose it could be argued that the people I know are strongly interested in ethics and philosophy and therefore count among the exceptions in society - which would be a fair argument.

True, but I would still judge that "knowing quite a few" is no small feat. You'd be hard pressed to find that many in Panama, even if you looked in ethical circles (in churches, for example).

Dan,

What sort of moron would trust fidelity statistics? You must be joking.

I do my own polls. For years I have been interested in this topic, and have observed men's behavior in bars and other places. [I know who these men are, so I know if they're married or not.] When in doubt, I can always ask men if they are faithful to their wives, or if they know anyone who is. You think a Latin man is likely to lie to me and tell me he is faithful, risking me thinking that he is a wimp or gay? If I went to his wife and told her, he would just deny it; no harm done.

The polls on homosexuality, otoh, are very unreliable. Most gay people aren't comfortable coming out of the closet.

Of course, carrying out the fidelity poll would be quite different in a place where men actually feel guilt or shame. I'll give Aussie men the benefit of the doubt.

[divine focus]

Of course, carrying out the fidelity poll would be quite different in a place where men actually feel guilt or shame. I'll give Aussie men the benefit of the doubt.

Different cultures, different rules.

[Tomas]

What did I start? The video channel was Dan's idea, and he's done 100% of the work. He deserves full credit.

I was thinking about you, Tomas. I was hoping you'd stop by so I can talk you into doing some searches. Can you get me the thread where David suggests a society where the unenlightened elderly are killed? I'll get you free tickets to Dan's next video concert, uhmmm, show.

Not to belabor the point but did that thread ('Who wants to kill the elderly') assist in any way?

PS - Hmmm .. how many "free" tickets and what's the catch? Certainly not Dan, he's not my type...

[Shahrazad]

Tomas,

Not to belabor the point but did that thread ('Who wants to kill the elderly') assist in any way?

No, I had already found that one, and it's not the one where David made his proposal.

PS - Hmmm .. how many "free" tickets and what's the catch?

I guess there's a catch: Dan doesn't charge for admission, so my free tickets are worthless.

Certainly not Dan, he's not my type...

Dan is everybody's type.

[Tomas]

.


-Shahrazad-
Tomas, No, I had already found that one, and it's not the one where David made his proposal.

-tomas-
Can you give any other leads? I remember his comments on it, but maybe I understood him differently (from a guy's point of view) and let his comments go at that..

[Shahrazad]

Can you give any other leads?

He talked about an enlightened society, where the goal would be to become wise and people would be given plenty of time to get there, but if they didn't make it by old age, they'd be killed.

That's all I remember right now.

[Tomas]

Can you give any other leads?

He talked about an enlightened society, where the goal would be to become wise and people would be given plenty of time to get there, but if they didn't make it by old age, they'd be killed.

That's all I remember right now.

Thanks, I'm on it :-)