Animals and nirvana

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

guest_of_logic wrote: Buddhism concerns itself with compassion for all life
Really? Compassion is one thing but it doesn't mean all living things experience dukkha in the way Buddha is explaining the term.
Surely that's obvious? Anonymity was the only way to avoid being banned again.
Were you banned? You see, you assume everyone knows everything about you. Why would you sneak back in after being banned? Doesn't sound like honest behavior.
Or perhaps you're just afraid for people to know who you really are, to take ego destruction to the next level.
Why do you think ego destruction is the goal? Destruction seems to be your department, not mine. I do know people can get easiliy lost in the details and minutes of their own life, let alone trying to understand those of others. But gee, Laird, "who someone really is". You mean there's an essential ME under all this?
Not every detail, sure, but some reveal more than others. For example, we know that Pye lectures philosophy at an American university.
Nonsense, she explicitly refrained from giving her name, title or mentioning any highly appraised book she authored on a topic interesting to this forum. And you're giving that as example? You sound completely out of the loop here.
We know that Dennis owns a puppy, and once had a girlfriend with whom he negotiated intercourse by putting out objects in a shared space. We know that Tomas has native Indian heritage, is devoted to his partner, and has several grandchildren. We know that Pam has a partner and children. What, along these lines, do we know about you? Nothing that I can think of, other than that you are Dutch - hardly a revelation, given your name.
I've given way, way more information than the above examples over the years. So you mean you don't remember it so it must be hidden? For example I was not aware of Dennis his object girlfriend, Tomas his Indian heritage, Pam her children, etc. You're really confused on this topic, Laird. If you care for this then you're on the wrong forum for the wrong reasons. Again! It shows some level of obsession with my person which you should ask yourself what might be causing it.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

The issue brought up was in regards to the suffering of animals, aka, do ants count in your shaky morality? Apparently so.

Shouldn't you then be more careful where you step? :)
Just seems to be a logical conclusion following from what you've written.

I'm not sure how any of this is related but no I've never accepted any kind of welfare, not sure where you got that idea, and I make money online. Completely off topic though really. Enlightenment is not "caring about other creatures", look up any definition of it you like (that's all you'll be doing, looking it up). This forum is about the leaving behind of any delusion(belief) and the recognition of ultimate reality as it is (prior to delusional beliefs about what it is), which includes the recognition of emptiness and the lack of a perishable ego-entity(self-possession or belonging). Not to mention the end of clinging to notions of inherent-quality that you impose on appearances (very often).
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guest_of_logic
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by guest_of_logic »

Obsessed with you, Diebert? Would it be unkind to tell you to get over yourself? Perhaps it would, so I won't. ;-)

I don't really feel like responding to the rest of what you've written - no offence, it just doesn't seem very productive for either of us. Be well.

John,

Of course ants count: they are sentient creatures like us. And of course I'm careful where I step. I don't wish unnecessary suffering on any being.

As for where I got the idea that you were on welfare, it was when you failed to correct Pye on anything that she wrote in either of these two posts: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7271#p144922 and viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7271#p144924. Admittedly, I didn't remember as clearly as I could have, and a more likely interpretation of her assessment of your living situation is that you are living with and being provided for by your family.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

guest_of_logic wrote:Obsessed with you, Diebert? Would it be unkind to tell you to get over yourself? Perhaps it would, so I won't. ;-)
Says the one who just today started out of the blue about how am hiding a lot and keeping "stuff" out of the discussion. After which you stated that you didn't know anything special what that might be. As example you then name occupation, pets, relationships, heritage and family ties. And when I point out that I did discuss some of these things over the years when the topics arose, you quickly run away.

Bah! Dishonesty. You don't even want to face your own manipulation and innuendo. This inability to be honest with your own person, motives and twists of logic. That is interesting to address, that is "ego destruction" (lets call it revelation of a false self). And discussions around logic and pure reasoning, abstract topic are the best means for that as it deals with things less prone to bending and twisting. That's why we're having them a lot, kiddo, as in: "you are kidding yourself about your self".
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by guest_of_logic »

Oh, come on, Diebert. How many times have you criticised or analysed me out of the blue in the past? Aren't you doing it even in that very post? And I'm not "running away", I just see no value in continuing the conversation. Contrary to being "obsessed", I'm actually not all that interested in it. If you feel that you've revealed things that have escaped my notice, then fine. I was just suggesting a possibility. If you choose to reject it, then that's fine too, and I don't care to pursue it.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

guest_of_logic wrote:Oh, come on, Diebert. How many times have you criticised or analysed me out of the blue in the past? Aren't you doing it even in that very post? And I'm not "running away", I just see no value in continuing the conversation. Contrary to being "obsessed", I'm actually not all that interested in it. If you feel that you've revealed things that have escaped my notice, then fine. I was just suggesting a possibility. If you choose to reject it, then that's fine too, and I don't care to pursue it.
I meant just that you were bringing something up, even implying insincerity (I mean that's how it sounded) and then when challenged on all accounts you suddenly are tired of the subject. It would have helped if you just said right away that yes, things obviously would have escaped your attention as would be normal for everyone here. Instead of shutting down the topic.

You can drop the subject of course but you also didn't react on my challenge to your misrepresentation of the point on animals experiencing dukkha. Which confirms the pattern of you having the freedom of slinging things to people (to me in this thread alone: distraction,derailing, warped views, afraid, insecure, hiding a lot) but not taking responsibility for them or accept any resistance.
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by guest_of_logic »

I didn't mean to imply insincerity, just lack of engagement.

As for challenging on all accounts, that's what *most* people in *most* conversations on this forum seem to feel about almost *everything* they post to one another, it's nothing very original or worthy of continuing a conversation over. But since you re-raise the issue of animals experiencing dukkha, I will simply direct you to the Wikipedia page on dukkha, which pretty much cinches the case. I mean, there's even a helpful little quotation there re the first pattern of dukkha: "Even animals understand the suffering of suffering. It is unpleasant and explicitly undesirable". I'm not sure how you could continue to argue with a page like that, but, knowing you as I do, one thing I know for certain is: you most certainly will!
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Pam Seeback »

If one accepts that dukkha is the experience of stress or unsatisfactoriness then all living beings experience dukkha. Hunger, thirst, lust and exposure to the elements are cycling stressful conditions demanding release, all four conditions effecting humans and animals alike. The only stress that is present in the human realm that is not present in the animal realm is the deluded human belief that there is an existent self experiencing stress.

In other words, all living beings suffer stress; only human beings are foolish enough to throw identity into the mix. Ironically, the same thing that causes the human to be deluded as to the concept of self, the intellect, also causes the human to question the very nature of suffering, thereby being the agent of deliverance for all living beings.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

guest_of_logic wrote:I didn't mean to imply insincerity, just lack of engagement.

As for challenging on all accounts, that's what *most* people in *most* conversations on this forum seem to feel about almost *everything* they post to one another, it's nothing very original or worthy of continuing a conversation over. But since you re-raise the issue of animals experiencing dukkha, I will simply direct you to the Wikipedia page on dukkha, which pretty much cinches the case. I mean, there's even a helpful little quotation there re the first pattern of dukkha: "Even animals understand the suffering of suffering. It is unpleasant and explicitly undesirable". I'm not sure how you could continue to argue with a page like that, but, knowing you as I do, one thing I know for certain is: you most certainly will!
Laird, I was talking about you being challenged on calling my words distraction, derailing, warped view, afraid, insecure and the person himself hiding. You call it out like that then you get something back but you seem to quickly disown it and even try to imply the other one is having some issue. It's just something I do not accept from anyone and I really think you can learn to think twice next time. Of course I could let it slide just as easily but in the past you showed you could look back and learn from the dynamic.

As for leaning on Wikipedia, why not just say, as the article states that Geshe Tashi Tsering said that. It's under the topic of dukkha-dukkha but I'm only discussing sankhara-dukkha as the only philosophical point of interest. The Buddha is not proposing some ordinary, physical fix for your birth, aging, illness and dying after all. In the end you quote just one of the viewpoints which the article collects because of a certain degree of notability. But somehow you turn this into myself somehow arguing with "that (Wikipedia) page".

What I'd like you to do is take this thinking a bit more seriously! You sound muddled and lazy in how you put your argument together. And then suggest I'm being argumentative for challenging it. Again something I'm not supposed to do, or what?
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Leyla Shen »

It's the same shit. "All-pervasive" suffering being the more complex, human sense of it. Everything you say or do is because you desire either the existence or non-existence of the things around you: "suffering". Scarcity causes craving, abundance contentment.
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Cahoot
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Cahoot »

Getting back to the original posting:

I checked some facts. India has very low meat consumption per capita, which is to be expected. Sacred cows.

The US and Australia have the highest meat consumption. Also expected. No sacred cows.

However, India has the most cattle. Far more than any other country. Since they aren’t being eaten they must breed like rabbits. Their worth is what their bodies produce while alive. Their worth is more than the expense of feeding them, worth more than the other responsibilities of keeping them.

These are the free range cows made mythical by the meat eaters. Cows as God intended them. A more or less natural diet, no nutrient supplements. No ‘roid cows. No stress. As much exercise as any animal would choose for itself. A natural taste, says the meat eater. An anthical and rare dining experience. Like horse. An animal not customized for consumption.

The Western cattle are notoriously stupid. The diet, the hormones, artificial fast growth, artificial weight gains. They may even be bred for complacency. These scientists and their clever ways …

Seems like an Indian cow would have more opportunity than its pumped-up cousin, to awaken.

I read that Sri Ramana Maharshi was an animal whisperer. The question is, would a western cow hear him?
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

guest_of_logic wrote: John,

Of course ants count: they are sentient creatures like us. And of course I'm careful where I step. I don't wish unnecessary suffering on any being.

As for where I got the idea that you were on welfare, it was when you failed to correct Pye on anything that she wrote in either of these two posts: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7271#p144922 and viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7271#p144924. Admittedly, I didn't remember as clearly as I could have, and a more likely interpretation of her assessment of your living situation is that you are living with and being provided for by your family.
Yes she was referring to me living with my brother, which at the time was already changing, I'm now in qld. Of course none of that is relevant to the topic.

I only wonder how you kid yourself with this false 'compassion for all beings'. I'm pretty sure you mean 'compassion for all beings I come in contact with'. It's not like you run around trying to solve animal suffering, moving ants from pathways and fencing off roads. I'm sure you like to convince yourself you do a lot or a little to help, but best you end your own suffering first, (emotional suffering which you have admitted), remove all that darkness and egotism which constantly effects your emotions and judgement before becoming a missionary preaching what is right and wrong, truthful and psychopathic. Lately it seems you've gone down the same path as Alex, dishing out opinions while completely denying and avoiding the subject matter of the forum without any reason as to why it's so absurd.



You read that he was an animal whisperer Cahoot! Is that all it takes for you, someone said it. I'm not implying you believe it, but you make it sound like that's the case?
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Cahoot »

You do try to put a slant on things, don’t you. I’m not old enough to have seen for myself. However, the fact matches the question, and is the premise for the question. And we all have our own experiences with animals enough to know what’s what.
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

True enough, I'm not saying it's either way, big universe.
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by guest_of_logic »

Heh. I told you, Diebert, that you would continue arguing even though your case had been blown out of the water. You scramble with your qualification that suddenly it's now only *one* type of dukkha to which you were referring (this is the first I've heard of that!), but even then you're on no better ground. Notice the quote provided by that Wikipedia page of sankhara-dukkha: "a basic unsatisfactoriness pervading all existence, all forms of life". Notice that? It applies to ALL forms of life. Of course, this will not be enough for you either...

As for the distraction and derailing, I do think that you didn't communicate very clearly, and whether or not it was intentional (it might not have been, it might have simply been poor communication), it did have that effect.

As for the warped view: see above.

As for afraid and insecure, you are best placed to judge that: after all, "know thyself" is your dictum. It's possible that I made a poor inference there, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't true to at least *some* extent.

As for hiding, well, I actually remembered something significant and personal that you've revealed, so I take that back somewhat: you have, after all, revealed that you were once a committed and practising Christian, and that you have witnessed faith healings whose recipients you followed up with over a long period of time later. I do think, though, that you tend such a lot towards abstraction and a sort of depersonalised approach that it's not always easy to work out what you stand for, who you really are.

-------

John,
Yes she was referring to me living with my brother, which at the time was already changing, I'm now in qld. Of course none of that is relevant to the topic.
It's absolutely relevant to the topic. The point is that you deny that compassion is worthwhile/useful (for animals etc) whilst simultaneously accepting compassion from others. That's hypocrisy.
I only wonder how you kid yourself with this false 'compassion for all beings'. I'm pretty sure you mean 'compassion for all beings I come in contact with'. It's not like you run around trying to solve animal suffering, moving ants from pathways and fencing off roads.
There is so much human-caused animal suffering that it's not difficult to start to make a difference, and not just to animals with which you come in contact. Dietary and similar choices (clothing, furniture, etc) are the best way to go about that, but there are other ways, like refusing to support zoos, circuses with animal performers, rodeos, etc, like supporting organisations that work for animals, and like speaking up against cruelty and abrogation of rights. I'm working on an advocacy site at the moment, which is a way of encouraging other people to make the same choices.
I'm sure you like to convince yourself you do a lot or a little to help, but best you end your own suffering first, (emotional suffering which you have admitted), remove all that darkness and egotism which constantly effects your emotions and judgement before becoming a missionary preaching what is right and wrong, truthful and psychopathic. Lately it seems you've gone down the same path as Alex, dishing out opinions while completely denying and avoiding the subject matter of the forum without any reason as to why it's so absurd.
Blah blah: as with Diebert's view that dukkha does not apply to animals, this forum's views on the self are warped. I don't "avoid" this, I have written plenty about why that is. Happy to link you to some of it if you haven't read it yet (most of it was before you arrived here, I think). As for fixing oneself before fixing the world, the two are not mutually exclusive.
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

guest_of_logic wrote: compassion is worthwhile/useful

Worthwhile to a goal or end?
Useful toward being compassionate of course. Look Laird, I'm sure you get what it means that nothing has inherent-quality or meaning. That you are creating distinctions and imposing meaning upon things/events.

You get that right? It's not hard to grasp, it's undeniable, it's obvious.

Effectively you are imposing personal distinctions, saying others should abide by these views you have forced upon appearances. (Clearly such views are not universal but are supported by certain people)
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Leyla Shen wrote:It's the same shit. "All-pervasive" suffering being the more complex, human sense of it. Everything you say or do is because you desire either the existence or non-existence of the things around you: "suffering". Scarcity causes craving, abundance contentment.
Desire for the (non-)existence of the things is not just a more complex version of pain and discomfort. Well I wish philosophy was so simple and that we could boil it down to economics like that!
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

guest_of_logic wrote:You scramble with your qualification that suddenly it's now only *one* type of dukkha to which you were referring (this is the first I've heard of that!), but even then you're on no better ground.
You should read more carefully as I've been qualifying it in nearly every post. I even warned this was not about medicine (hurt, bleeding, treatment).
Notice the quote provided by that Wikipedia page of sankhara-dukkha: "a basic unsatisfactoriness pervading all existence, all forms of life". Notice that? It applies to ALL forms of life. Of course, this will not be enough for you either...
Again you are pitting me against Wikipedia! Are the bacteria suffering now too? Are you saying that? Bacteria are "being pervaded with unsatisfactoriness". Mind your step!
Last edited by Diebert van Rhijn on Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:26 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Are the bacteria suffering now too? .....Mind your step!

I'm more worried about the soil! How will it escape endless suffering? It's either stepped on or built over :(

Thank god for planes.
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Leyla Shen »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Leyla Shen wrote:It's the same shit. "All-pervasive" suffering being the more complex, human sense of it. Everything you say or do is because you desire either the existence or non-existence of the things around you: "suffering". Scarcity causes craving, abundance contentment.
Desire for the (non-)existence of the things is not just a more complex version of pain and discomfort. Well I wish philosophy was so simple and that we could boil it down to economics like that!
How economical of you to say!

You're a beacon of wisdom.
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Leyla Shen »

Lol

Great satire there, Cahoot!
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Leyla Shen wrote:You're a beacon of wisdom.
Yeah, we get your sarcasm by now. Very clever. Wow. Why not just start studying Buddhism and add something to the discussion?
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Are the bacteria suffering now too? .....Mind your step!
I'm more worried about the soil! How will it escape endless suffering? It's either stepped on or built over :(

Thank god for planes.
The only way to liberate microbiological lifeforms is for us to stop being so damn macro!
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

guest_of_logic wrote:Notice the quote provided by that Wikipedia page of sankhara-dukkha: "a basic unsatisfactoriness pervading all existence, all forms of life". Notice that? It applies to ALL forms of life. Of course, this will not be enough for you either...
In addition to my earlier reply: it really helps to understand Buddhism before quoting Wikipedia on it. And I'm not even going into my own views right now, just what is generally understood in the tradition. For example check out forms ("rūpa is more essentially defined by its amenability to being sensed than its being matter"). But also look at existence, especially the three marks of existence, shared by all sentient beings, leaving open what exactly a sentient being is. When studying the topic you'll see it's mostly Tibetan Buddhism that focuses on life as one sentient connected being (a more magical system of thought all in all) from which the quote you used was originating. More generally in Buddhism, they're talking about conscious beings which might include certain animals but one could easily argue that lower levels of consciousness means lower capacity for dukkha. They certainly could benefit from the interaction of wise people compared to interaction with the ignorant. But this would turn the subtle meanings of dukkha into simple economics of pain and pleasure which would be like Buddhism for Kids.
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Re: Animals and nirvana

Post by Pam Seeback »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Leyla Shen wrote:It's the same shit. "All-pervasive" suffering being the more complex, human sense of it. Everything you say or do is because you desire either the existence or non-existence of the things around you: "suffering". Scarcity causes craving, abundance contentment.
Desire for the (non-)existence of the things is not just a more complex version of pain and discomfort. Well I wish philosophy was so simple and that we could boil it down to economics like that!
It is true, desire for the non-existence of things is a more complex version of pain and discomfort, but it is the intensity of this desire that opens you up experientially to this truth.

Before the Buddha realized the insight wisdom of emptiness and impermanence thereby ending belief in the polarity of existence and non-existence, he too experienced existential pain. One cannot know for certain, but it seems a logical conclusion that if he had not experienced, for himself, a (deluded) desire for non-existence, he would not have been motivated to meditate, unto death on the true nature of reality.

Without the suffering of existential pain, I do not see a breaking through into direct knowledge of its delusion. In relation to this topic, animals do not suffer existential angst allowing them to break through to insight wisdom, which means that the deeper existential suffering of man is also the higher form of suffering.
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