Former atheist speaks out...

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Diebert says that "conscience" stops us from physically killing others. I say the main reason is circumstance. People are not developed enough to have conscience.

Well, yeah, but even conscience could be said to be shaped and reinforced by a string of ongoing circumstances. I do know the standards you maintain Kevin on what constitutes real thought and real conscience but I think the term conscience in a general sense describes pretty accurate the collection of processes already in place which guide moral behavior, good or bad, any immediate circumstance notwithstanding.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Civilization is indeed founded on blood. And on sweat and on tears. It is also founded on courage and inspiration, on strength and determination. And a good deal of it is founded on faith. To say that it is founded on blood even in part, however, is not to say that this blood was extracted for pleasure, which is the point we are discussing. Rather by your own admission, this blood was spilled for a purpose.

But when pleasure is derived from cruel behavior, causing pain or death, it doesn't mean it suddenly has no purpose now. That said, I didn't want to give the impression it's all isolated from those other things like courage and sweat. The issue for me is that one is condemned (but still indirectly engaged in) and the other one valued and praised. I'm not saying that should be changed, just remarking it and wondering what mechanism is at play here.

It was well-known that the executioner who enjoyed his job was not particularly good at it in a technical sense. A cruel one would not strive to make a hanging quick and efficient but would have the condemned shuddering in agony at the end of the rope. And I will wager that those who work in a slaughter house are probably glad they have a job, but derive no pleasure from the blood-letting.

These are hard to determine issues as we already have guilt firmly embedded for so long. My estimate is that some executioners and butchers do really enjoy the blood-letting but with most the pleasure deriving will be probably diminished. Also perhaps out of shame of deriving such thing from a generally condemned or looked down upon, almost hidden activity.

Diebert, I think you and I are looking at the same society, but I entirely disagree with your Aztecan sensibilities. There is a reason the killing-floor is on the other side of town and the killing fields on the other side of the world. I do not claim civilization is as advanced as it is going to get, however. Maybe the glass is both half empty and half full. After all, it has to be, doesn't it?

As long as we know both halves there's no disagreement or sensibility issue left. It's what it is and all we can do is examine our role in it, bringing a bit awareness to the issue.

[Eclipse]

Alex Jacob's bienhechor said:

"Everything in spiritual life begins through the prayers ...Prayers are 'magical formulas' that actually go out into the cosmos, into the world, and then they 'resound': they echo back to us in waves or octaves...Our prayers bring us, time and time again, to important 'gates'. The 'gates' are impasses...”

Thank you, Alex, that puts me in a surprising direction, and I hope it gives me the start I needed.

I see an atheist (objectivist) as one who separates God from oneself. He is on the inside looking out, trapped by invisible gates. So are preachers by praying to an external God. (Jesus: The Kingdom of Heaven is within, and not a gated community whose keys are held by the likes of these.)

I see a mystic (subjectivist) as one who separates reality from God. He is on the outside looking in, trapped by invisible gates.

The gates are locked on both sides. My prayers will unlock my side, and if they’re sensed by God, he will open his.

I feel a little awkward about that last bit... I can see why prayers are meant to be private, and not be externally directed bull$#!+.

[brokenhead]

I feel a little awkward about that last bit... I can see why prayers are meant to be private, and not be externally directed bull$#!+.

Probably why Jesus criticized those who prayed loudly in public so that they could be sure other people would hear them and think them pious.