Hello. I bring a small gift.

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
kissaki
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by kissaki »

yougene wrote:
I think the idea that men are the primary acting agents is a little partial. Sure socio-cultural structures have placed man as the acting agent of the public sphere, but at the same time there is a whole socio-cultural structure that man is dependent on.
That is only the surface of The Thing expressed here. Ultimately, masculine and feminine descriptions based on just the physical fail, while intellect and spirit reign supreme. It's all software from now on. Hardware will become as interchangeable as clothing. What will you do when 'beings' are able to upload themselves into male or female bodies at will? What about androgynous or sexual hybrid physical vehicles? Better to rid yourself of any attachments to those past causes now because they are fast becoming irrelevant, otherwise you might find yourself unable to cope and your identity threatened.
yougene wrote:
It's easy to take the masculine view as ontologically primary and completely dismiss the feminine. But that is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Although qualitatively different the feminine is just as fundamental as the masculine.
Femininity is fundamental but not in the way you think. Femininity is the noise and masculinity is the signal in the noise. In order for the masculine to be signal it must understand itself and the nature of noise in order to differentiate, while noise need not understand or be anything different from what it already is.
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Kelly Jones
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by Kelly Jones »

mansman wrote:She write the books for particular audience so she take liberty to satisfy, remember she has to eat! I think is some of that.
If a person is going to spread garbage ideas, then they should do it very briefly, with a very strong copyright warning. E.g. "This is full of lies and if you copy it, you are an idiot. Copies of this work can only be made if every page copied has this warning added in bold, large letters: 'I, so-and-so, hereby acknowledge that this book is full of lies, and I am deeply and sincerely sorry for publishing it. I have let it be published because I am an idiot and will now commit myself to a high-security level in a psychiatric ward for the rest of my days, at my own expense.' "

You should write your own book about her 10 female philosophers, and she makes 11, but this time include real truth.
There are critiques, currently in progress, of female philosophers of the last 100 years on this web-site.

Advertise smartly and you then will sell at least half as many books. Easy project too. If you write with skill maybe her defenses not rise up, then you reach her too.
I'm not going to bother reaching women. A woman has to be far brighter than the men for her to have a chance, because she has so much stacked against her. Women are like chameleons - or sieves. In one ear, out the other. Nothing sticks. They only listen to manipulate you into giving them more attention; then they reveal they only want attention and if you don't give it to them, you're out the door. Women have defences on purpose to avoid thinking. They pretend to be thinkers, but after months and months of study, they'll suddenly reveal what comes naturally - and spew total garbage. Philosophy is not a road for a female. Too many resources are needed to induce females towards wisdom, and we don't have enough resources - not unless the candidate is so bloody obstinate and self-reliant that you can't shake her off. Even then the best technique is to ignore 75% of her questions, and let her find out the answers herself.

So I will communicate with women, but only to use their responses, as thought-provoking material for the masculine-minded.

But there too is the issue that so few men take pride in celibacy and solitude, and are only too willing to remain totally enslaved to Woman.

(remember me when you become famous! maybe I earn a small cut for idea, ok)
I am a plain, ordinary person who is aspiring to be as wise as possible, so I will not be either famous or popular. Plus, I'm not an entertainer. I need to think before I speak, and I reserve my energy - so I just say the crude, basic truths. I'm not a witty actor.

I am not really set up to be that sort of communicator. People want someone to overwhelm them, convince them, dominate and tell them what to think. But this sort of argumentative, loud, aggressive style is very life-draining. For instance, last night, I was completely exhausted after a discussion group, because I have a quiet voice. It sounds the right volume to me, but everyone kept asking me to shout whenever I spoke. The topic wasn't tiring, nor was the thinking, but the psychology of dominating people and shouting was very taxing. People seem to think they're philosophers when they are only ranting.

I'm trying to connect with as many bright, young males as possible, to channel them away from the workplace, marriage, and the whole slave-trade. I'm trying to help stimulate their own thinking about wisdom and the psychology necessary for it. So I have to pick my methods carefully.
kissaki
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by kissaki »

Kelly Jones wrote:
But there too is the issue that so few men take pride in celibacy and solitude, and are only too willing to remain totally enslaved to Woman.
I disagree that celibacy and solitude are ultimate and final achievements or really things to be prideful of in any way. They are useful tools to create space in which to develop wisdom and attain enlightenment, however, beyond that it is up to the individual to decide what use or purpose they have. Once you've removed a thorn with another thorn, you throw away both thorns, once you've crossed the river to the other side, you discard the raft upon which you traveled, and so on. For all of the follies of woman, her physical form still commands attention; nature has seen to that.

[From Zen Teachings in Venom Crystals]
Student: Is an awakened man still subject to the law of cause and effect?
Master: He does not obscure it.
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David Quinn
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by David Quinn »

Kevin Solway wrote:This paragraph of Paglia's seems very stupid to me:
"... The term "female philosopher" doesn't even make sense to me. Simone de Beauvoir was a thinker rather than a philosopher. A philosopher for me is someone who is removed from everyday concerns and manipulates terms and concepts like counters on a grid or chessboard. Both Simone de Beauvoir and Ayn Rand, another favourite of mine, have their own highly influential system of thought, and therefore they belong on any list of great philosophers."
She begins by saying that Simone de Beauvoir was a thinker, and not a philosopher. And here Paglia is totally correct, for de Beauvoir was certain capable of thought, but she definitely wasn't a philosopher.

Paglia then ends the same paragraph by saying that de Beauvoir was a great philosopher!

Unless I've missed something, that is plain stupidity.

Her writing here reminds me of what one might expect to hear from some kind of Christian priest. Meaningless and spineless nonsense.
A classic case of woman's flowiness, resulting from a lack of conscious memory.

Her praise of Ayn Rand is also a worry, given that Rand's system of thought was little more than a poorly-disguised justification of her erotic attachment to strong, worldly men. But then again, Paglia is very big on eroticism, regardless of the consequences, so I suppose it is no surprise.

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David Quinn
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by David Quinn »

kissaki wrote:Women are out of excuses.
Yes, this is going to become an increasing problem for women as time goes on. It will become harder and harder for them to blame their failings on "male oppression", given that men have bent over backwards to give women every possible freedom for many decades now.

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DHodges
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by DHodges »

[quote=""Camille Paglia"]
"The prostitute has come to symbolize for me the ultimate liberated woman, who lives on the edge and whose sexuality belongs to no one." - pg 58
[/quote]
I wonder if she specifically had Valerie Solanas in mind when she wrote that.
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Kelly Jones
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by Kelly Jones »

Kissaki wrote:
But there too is the issue that so few men take pride in celibacy and solitude, and are only too willing to remain totally enslaved to Woman.
I disagree that celibacy and solitude are ultimate and final achievements or really things to be prideful of in any way. They are useful tools to create space in which to develop wisdom and attain enlightenment, however, beyond that it is up to the individual to decide what use or purpose they have. Once you've removed a thorn with another thorn, you throw away both thorns, once you've crossed the river to the other side, you discard the raft upon which you traveled, and so on. For all of the follies of woman, her physical form still commands attention; nature has seen to that.

[From Zen Teachings in Venom Crystals]
Student: Is an awakened man still subject to the law of cause and effect?
Master: He does not obscure it.
Celibacy is the same as freedom from delusion: from desire. I wasn't speaking about sexual abstinence, but that is certainly a good stepping-stone for the average male. Being addicted to sex is no heaven.

Solitude, too, has a spiritual meaning. Its the kind of existence one has, from realising no one else may be conscious. One is alone before Truth. Every thought and action has a heightened sense of A=A. There is just oneself. Whatever woman is, is seen in its real context, and no longer commands attention, for there is no woman.
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DHodges
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by DHodges »

David Quinn wrote:Her praise of Ayn Rand is also a worry, given that Rand's system of thought was little more than a poorly-disguised justification of her erotic attachment to strong, worldly men.
I read Rand as having more of an attachment to Capitalism based on her experiences with the excesses of Communism, and seeing Capitalism as its opposite and only alternative.

But I think it's fair to say her view of Capitalism - and powerful Capitalists - was very romantic.
Pye
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by Pye »

David: It will become harder and harder for them [women] to blame their failings on "male oppression", given that men have bent over backwards to give women every possible freedom for many decades now.
kissaki: For all of the follies of woman, her physical form still commands attention; nature has seen to that.
These two quotes stand in fatal relationship to one another. "Giving" women access to education, free movement, freer selection of their own destinies, a larger role in policy-making, increased mobility in professional fields - in short, any and all of the signs of advancement in transcendent activities will remain the grudging concessions that they are, as long as her 'true' value and power rests in kissaki's (and most men's) preeminent belief in her immanence value alone.

As long as one is not able to think of her/treat and consider her as potential transcendent human subjectivity, too (including the woman herself), no amount of these concessions will mask this conditioning attitude. She will enter the universities, move in the boardrooms and the world at large in half-life still. She will see again and again that no matter the loose respect accorded her for her contributions to the affairs at hand, her real power with you resides in her immanent use-value alone. For if you are not concerned with her bodily, you are not concerned with her at all.

I have seen over and over in 'professional' settings the serious work and ideas proffered by women completely devalued by one deadly reminder or body-joke that drags everything back down to immanence-value alone. You make your problem with her - your incapacity to see her as anything but flesh, as anything but potential transcendent humanity - her problem - with every corner she turns, anywhere near you, every place you 'let' her in.

Men have been here before saying just exactly that - that no matter what, they cannot help seeing women as sexual potential and sexual potential alone (or, mother-matter). If this is not there, you do not see her at all; she is nothing else.

You (still rhetorical you) have given her these things you say you have given her, like you might hand the keys to the car over to a child. Okay, little man, you want to play grown-up? Go ahead - let's see what you can accomplish without being taught how to drive. Drive all you want, in fact, you will never be more than a child. When the child wrecks the car, you say, See? - we've given them all they want and they still blame us for their accidents!

But that's okay. I agree with Simone de Beauvoir that it's pretty stupid to wait around for your captors (and by this I mean women held captive in immanent-use-value alone for/by most all position-of-power men, and by women themselves) to be the self-same source of your eventual freedom. Women know they are potentially transcendent humanity; they are moving there in spite of you. They are laughing with you at your body jokes, at your body-fixations, whilst they make their impresses into transcendent things, because this is the kind of power you give them. The only kind.

And (unfortunately), because they know your incapacity to consider them anything else, they are swiping great chunks of the world right out from under you because you are so easy to immanently use. Woman have gotten by on men's weaknesses for centuries, just like all masters' weaknesses are located and exploited by any slave. These are the limits possible in any master/slave dynamic. For anything better to come - anything more reasonable - the power exchange has to morph into another form. Myself, I am fond of power residing in any and all human excellence alone, and none by dint of embedded social structure.

Nothing will happen in this sick and out-of-kilter power loop until you shed these scales from your eyes. Until you expect-from and accept-from her every consideration of rational excellence (i.e. transcendent-being) that you do for your fellow men. When you stand before a man, you assume of him all of his transcendent subjectivity. Your refusal to see this of women, too, (and women to see this of themselves, in spite of heavy social conditioning), is to the downfall of both.

Men still oppress. None of your jobs or education or pseudo-freedom are the true mechanisms of your oppression. You withhold acknowledgment of the real value, the one thing that has any hope of tampering with this over-conditioned cycle - a truly threatening thing to you - that is, to move your considerations of women as pure immanence to the considerations of them as potentially transcendent human beings. You will truly have to treat them differently if you do! You still don't see that in doing this, you un-oppress yourselves. In fact, you perhaps don't see in the first place that not doing this has built the shape of your own oppression. At the bottom of it, you don't understand exactly what the nature of this oppression really is!

Instead, you just toss them the keys without teaching them how it works; and without expecting them to have any capacity for it in the first place. Really winning and reasonable address to the problem, isn't it [/sarcasm].

Here is the bad faith in it all: Not being able to think of women as more than flesh (unconsciousness) is not a statement of truth. It is a statement of what you are not able to think.



.
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Kelly Jones
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by Kelly Jones »

Pye, it's really you who aren't thinking.

You are demanding from men something. So, why are you blaming men when they give women things they are demanding - like gender equity in education?

Aren't you?
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Kelly Jones
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by Kelly Jones »

Woman: unceasing desire.

That is all she is. I want, I want, I want. I, I, I, I, I.

I am offended, I am offended.

Etc. etc. etc.
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Kelly Jones
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by Kelly Jones »

They are laughing with you at your body jokes, at your body-fixations,
This is the third time you have raised this idea, presumably about the psychological differences between men and women.

Why don't you listen? I've explained it twice (see Footholds again).

This seems to me the typical way wives egg-on their husbands into a build-up of frustration. Eventually, the husband explodes in a rage and vents his tantrum on her to get her to stop being such a fool. Mortified at his behaviour, he suddenly becomes craven and begs for forgiveness. She sits smugly watching for the temporary period of peace, then starts it all over again. Oh, life!
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DHodges
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Equality, Transcendence, Immanence

Post by DHodges »

Some things can not be given - they must be taken.
yougene
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by yougene »

Micro-chips have only been around for a few years.
That's right.

I think the idea that men are the primary acting agents is a little partial. Sure socio-cultural structures have placed man as the acting agent of the public sphere, but at the same time there is a whole socio-cultural structure that man is dependent on.
The cultural structures themselves were originally created out of the biological differences between the sexes. As such, their roots are deeper than that of a mere contrivance.
Which cultural structures are you talking about? We've gone through several stages in past thousands of years. Sure we've inherited from primates certain relations for mating. But going back even to tribal / horticultural societies you have a 50:50 split between patriarchy and matriarchy. Clearly our fundamental needs for food, production, and nurturing can be met using flexible configurations. Our current nuclear family configuration where the mom is barefoot in the kitchen and dad is at work making the money originated only several thousand years ago. When we shifted from horticultural means of production to agricultural means of production. The agricultural mode provided more food, safety, and nurturing but it also required a shift in how work is parititioned. So men with their upper-body strength and lack of reproductive organs agreed to work in the field and the woman agreed to tend the home and children. Biology is a very important frame to take into consideration but it's only one partial frame.
yougene
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by yougene »

kissaki wrote:
yougene wrote:
I think the idea that men are the primary acting agents is a little partial. Sure socio-cultural structures have placed man as the acting agent of the public sphere, but at the same time there is a whole socio-cultural structure that man is dependent on.
That is only the surface of The Thing expressed here. Ultimately, masculine and feminine descriptions based on just the physical fail, while intellect and spirit reign supreme. It's all software from now on. Hardware will become as interchangeable as clothing. What will you do when 'beings' are able to upload themselves into male or female bodies at will? What about androgynous or sexual hybrid physical vehicles? Better to rid yourself of any attachments to those past causes now because they are fast becoming irrelevant, otherwise you might find yourself unable to cope and your identity threatened.
I view masculine and feminine as typologies with male and female as categorical subsets. I'm not sure where you got the idea I do otherwise.

yougene wrote:
It's easy to take the masculine view as ontologically primary and completely dismiss the feminine. But that is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Although qualitatively different the feminine is just as fundamental as the masculine.
Femininity is fundamental but not in the way you think. Femininity is the noise and masculinity is the signal in the noise. In order for the masculine to be signal it must understand itself and the nature of noise in order to differentiate, while noise need not understand or be anything different from what it already is.
Interesting interpretation. Going back to the Tao or any other non-dual tradition the masculine and feminine are the metaphysical parts of the whole. There are many different frames to break it down from. In Buddhism it is presented as emptiness( masculine ), and form( feminine ). In platonism eros, the current towards wholeness ( masculine ), and agape, the current toward partness ( feminine ).
Pye
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by Pye »

Kelly: So, why are you blaming men when they give women things they are demanding - like gender equity in education?
You're tossing the keys without understanding what isn't given in this.
There will never be equity as long as people believe a female constitutionally, inherently incapable of transcendent humanhood. This is a self-defeating loop! Beliefs like these:
Woman: unceasing desire.

That is all she is. I want, I want, I want. I, I, I, I, I.

I am offended, I am offended.
- - - render these things-given pale in comparison.

Okay, well then - Men: unceasing desire.
Kelly: Why don't you listen?
:) I listen to everything you write. I agree with very little of it. You can no more pound me into what you want than I, you. There is no sense, Kelly, in asking me to regress my thinking to match the place behind me where I find yours.


************ (edit to add the following chunk I left out this morning) :
Kelly: You are demanding from men something.
btw, in response to this, you cannot demand enlightenment from anyone. Men know how to read. They can read what I wrote about oppression as a matter of being confined-to-immanence (same mechanism, by the way, that supports all forms of oppression), and they can think about it for themselves.

No, like Beauvoir (as I already mentioned), it is pure folly to demand from men something that women already possess for themselves (potential human transcendence); pure stupidity to wait around for others to enlighten themselves on the matter of one's own transcendence. But there is no mistaking: that the mechanisms of confinement confine the mechanic of them - fast-to them - just as surely as what they seek to confine.
Last edited by Pye on Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
yougene
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by yougene »

David Quinn wrote:
yougene wrote: It's easy to take the masculine view as ontologically primary and completely dismiss the feminine. But that is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Although qualitatively different the feminine is just as fundamental as the masculine.
If by "feminine" we mean a dim form of consciousness emanating from passivity, submissiveness, aimlessness, lack of logical skill, lack of empathy for truth, etc, then I'm pretty sure it is a quality we can do without.

-
That's not what I mean by feminine. The feminine is an essence which the female gender is a categorical subset of. Whereas the essence of man is masculine he is a representation of immaterial wholeness with a drive towards ascending transcendence. The feminine associated with form exists as the representation of the manifest world. She is associated with a descending current of embrace. Where masculine current is to beyond, the feminine current is to embrace. The two are different facets of the same whole.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

yougene, could you try to be a bit less vague? I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. An example might help.
A mindful man needs few words.
kissaki
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by kissaki »

Pye,

Those quotes remain in "fatal relationship" only in the mind of someone who is still ascribing spiritual and intellectual power to woman's physical form. Woman's ultimate test is whether she can let go of her physical form altogether and join the masculine as pure spirit, pure intellectual power that resides in the realm of the formless and abstract. Your entire post is essentially a demand that men make an exception for woman's form, as if to say, 'We'd like to compete too but first cash in our so happen-chance physical form for intellectual credit.'

Form is cheap, it is the last refuge of the cowardly. Nature creates millions forms and destroys them at a whim, and in the face of all of that women still demand their physical identity remain special. Transcendence remains as something attainable only to those willing to leave form behind.
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by Pye »

kissaki: Those quotes remain in "fatal relationship" only in the mind of someone who is still ascribing spiritual and intellectual power to woman's physical form. Woman's ultimate test is whether she can let go of her physical form altogether and join the masculine as pure spirit, pure intellectual power that resides in the realm of the formless and abstract
It appears to me that you are ascribing spiritual and intellectual power to a man's physical form, for how else will you make this distinction about who has the possibility to transcend?
kissaki: Transcendence remains as something attainable only to those willing to leave form behind.
Yes, you need to leave her form behind you, as well as your own form, but then you don't seem able to do this, since you see the transcendence of men only possibly because they are men.

Your underlined sentence might just as well read: "[Man's] ultimate test is whether [he] can let go of [his] physical form altogether and [transcend] as pure spirit, pure intellectual power that resides in the realm of the formless and abstract."

He will never be able to do that as long as he thinks his authority and capability to do so rests in his physical form.

Well anyway, you've got lots of company here to join you in your confusion.
kissaki
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by kissaki »

yougene wrote: I view masculine and feminine as typologies with male and female as categorical subsets. I'm not sure where you got the idea I do otherwise.
I never claimed you didn't. What I do claim is that you are treading water on the shallow end of the pool. You hint at this essence of the feminine without clearly defining it -- IRONY. Similar to Pye, I think you are trying to give more credit to woman's physical form than is necessary or useful even. I think you shall find that all mysterious properties ascribed to femininity are always vaguely tethered to the female physical form, and that all the supposed good qualities of it, such as compassion, are found just as much in men; in fact, it's reasonable to argue that the greatest and most profound examples of the supposed superior feminine qualities were and are manifested in men.

Masculinity is the vehicle to go beyond masculinity and femininity, not the goal itself. Promote the 'different facets of same whole' all you want, that does not mean they all lead to knowledge.
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Post by kissaki »

Pye,

woman/female != femininity. man/male != masculinity.

You are clearly entrenched within the realm of forms. Do not mistake the vehicle for the goal.
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Post by Pye »

kissaki: You are clearly entrenched within the realm of forms.
You are clearly unable to see that you count on the same. Calling man/masculine a "vehicle" does not mitigate this matter of form. Neither does defining masculine/feminine to mean whatever you want them to mean - giving them whatever form you want to give them. Nor does this do anything for the matter of your masculine ego, embedded in your very path and in dire need of transcendence as well.
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by kissaki »

Pye wrote: You are clearly unable to see that you count on the same.
Incorrect. I never claimed I was separate from form or that I don't use it for purposes of communication.
Pye wrote: Calling man/masculine a "vehicle" does not mitigate this matter of form.
Why? Because you say so? If thought reveals itself as a penetrative, precise, and powerful tool to disassemble and reassemble other thought-forms then I think labeling it 'masculinity' is not unreasonable.
Pye wrote: Neither does defining masculine/feminine to mean whatever you want them to mean - giving them whatever form you want to give them.
I shall use words to create and shape forms for my purposes. It is the true humility. Strict adherence to socially popular definitions is false security.
Pye wrote: Nor does this do anything for the matter of your masculine ego, embedded in your very path and in dire need of transcendence as well.
Kissaki cuts through all form! You have clearly received the message; all you simply have to say about it is 'I don't like it!'
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Re: Hello. I bring a small gift.

Post by Pye »

kissaki: I never claimed I was separate from form or that I don't use it for purposes of communication.
kissaki: Kissaki cuts through all form!
(oh, oh . . . third-person reference-to-self is seldom good form :)
Nice chatting with you anyway!
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