Making peace with femininity

[Laird]

If you really believe in equal polyamory within your psyche, there will be no feelings of jealousy.

I'm not free to believe in other than that which my emotions tell me?

[Sapius]

Dave;

Psychology does influence and even bring about new selection pressures, no doubt. For example the phenomenon of Sexual Selection, which often goes against the mechanisms ordinarily involved in strict natural selection, proliferates phenotypes and genotypes that aren't necessarily the fittest for physical environmental pressures.

Exactly! Now I would like to venture into another aspect of Existence and gredually try to show the connection as I perceive.

Strictly, the act of measurement decoheres the superposition of the quantum state such that the wavefunction of the system and the wavefunction of the environment (i.e. apparatus) interfere irretrievably. This is what causes the 'Problem of Measurement' in QM, according to Copenhagen.

Well, it’s not that important nor what I say is totally based on that.

Yes indeed, but it must be understood that the mechanism of selection acts on phenotypes but the mechanism of propagation acts only on genotypes, which are exclusively physical.

What I'm saying is that they are as far as the mechanism of evolution by natural selection is concerned. The mental qualities passed onto the next generation are conveyed just as physically as physical qualities are. As such, mental qualities are a subset of physical qualities.

Now lets talk about - physical. What does "physical" mean to you?

What I have to say about it will surely please Daybrown to a certain extent; so let me tell you this as an opener; that Existence to me is no more than a ‘matrix’, but is NOT a dream, in and off of anyone or anything else, including a “Goddess” who may dream it.

Sorry mate, I'm not too sure what you're saying here but it all sounds very Pincho Paxtonish. Is it perhaps based on extrapolation, using the above mistaken POV that 'everything is aware' as evidenced by the 'Consciousness Causes Collapse' common misconception?

I’m sure I most probably sound like that, :D ...but it is actually based on my philosophical musings, and not entirely on ‘quantum mechanics’; something I was not even aware but a few years ago, and how I think today is based on how and what I though since over 25 years ago.

In short; there is no way Existence could be unless there is some sort of dynamic duality working at all times, and say “physicality” and “awareness”, being the TWO essential core ingredients; be it conceived as the TWO sides of the SAME COIN so to speak, and that “coin” is what one conceives as “non-duality”, but in and off of a Dualistic Existence however.

[Sapius]

If you really believe in equal polyamory within your psyche, there will be no feelings of jealousy.

I'm not free to believe in other than that which my emotions tell me?

Not exactly; in my opinion, it's ones logically consistent reasoning, or even lack of consistency thereof, which creates ones "values", on which ones emotions are based on. No one does anything for absolutely no reason at all.

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BTW, Laird, could you please point me to the "dictionary" link you actually use on-line? Or anybody else please. Dictionary.com is but a collection of further links. I have been using M-Webster on-line, but it does not elaborate much at times, and asks for membership which I don't want to.

[brokenhead]

That test I hope will come about due to my belief in polyamoury. Basically I believe that any woman that I'm with should be free to be with other men at the same time should she so choose (and I'd hope that she'd grant the same freedom to me). The difficulty of course is this inbuilt territoriality that we as humans feel about our partners - monogamy seems to be a selected-for trait. So the test for me is whether I'll be able to rationalise this feeling of jealousy (a form of hatred) by saying to myself "Alright, I'm feeling jealous of this other lover but in the end, what's the harm, right? I mean, she still loves me, and that's what matters, isn't it?" Now as far as I understand Sue, what she's saying is that this jealousy that I might feel towards my lover's other man would be a necessary consequence of my own love for my lover, and I wouldn't be able to escape it. My contention on the other hand is that going through the process of rationalisation enough times trains one's brain to, if not totally eliminate the emotion, at least minimise the effect that it has on one's mind and behaviour. It's like being maliciously teased.

You are missing the point, I think. It doesn't matter whether you believe that the woman you are with should be free to be with other men. The fact is, she is free to do that. Jealousy is not towards the other man, either. The "hatred" is directed to the lover.

I personally do not want to clip any body's wings. It's that simple. If a woman I am with decides she wants to see another person, she is ipso facto free to do so with or without my blessing. She automatically has it, though. Not that she will need it. But that,also automatically, is a one-way street as far as I'm concerned. She may be capable of polyamory. I am not, nor do I intend to be. It is even more a waste of time than romantic love itself usually is when it is monogamous.

Life is too short to put up with another person's emotional whims. I do not tolerate them in my own self, why should I subject myself to them from other people? This is why it is a bad idea to get involved with someone you work with. Because for me, "good-bye" is automatically "good riddance."

Laird - have you really ever met anyone who is worth this "test" of yours? It is weakness. The real test is having the cajones to throw that one back. She is not your mother, or anyone else to whom you attribute your loving upbringing. She is just a woman. IF it would be such a test, THEN it is not something your natural instincts are crazy about. That should tell you something. That should tell you that you are willing to give something that she is not.

One the other hand, if you yourself want your cake and eat it, too, you deserve to be taking this test. Over and over and over again. You may pass once. And you may pass twice. But sooner or later you will fail. And it will be your own fault.

In the long run, everyobdy eventually rejects polyamory for the spineless sham that it is. Reject it while you are still young, and you will be ahead of the game.

"What?" you say. "I wasn't aware it was a game!"

It's not. Until someone cheats.

[Laird]

BTW, Laird, could you please point me to the "dictionary" link you actually use on-line? Or anybody else please. Dictionary.com is but a collection of further links.

Actually I use dictionary.com. I haven't found it to be but a collection of further links - it actually provides plenty of definitions on the page itself. Here's an example - the page that defines "dictionary": http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dictionary?r=75.

[brokenhead]

I use this to get quick definitions.

[Laird]

brokenhead, I didn't quite follow your post. At first you wrote that you "personally do not want to clip any body's wings", seemingly endorsing my position on polyamoury. Then later you wrote "Laird - have you really ever met anyone who is worth this "test" of yours? It is weakness", seemingly denouncing my position.

I don't know how to reconcile these two positions, except to note that you eventually wrote something pretty categorical: "In the long run, everybody eventually rejects polyamory for the spineless sham that it is." You didn't, however, explain how it was a "sham" nor how anybody could, as you put it, "cheat".

[brokenhead]

In the long run, everyobdy eventually rejects polyamory for the spineless sham that it is. Reject it while you are still young, and you will be ahead of the game.

Overstated. My bad.

Here's the drill:

Fuck as many women as you can. But love just one. And then you stop fucking around. Understand?

If by polyamory you mean loving more than one woman as friends/family members, I do that all the time.

Few women would say: "Go ahead, boink whatever comes around the corner, and then come back and boink me, I don't care."

Maybe I should move to Australia.

[Laird]

Broke, again I don't know how to read you. First you say something that indicates "love only one woman":

Fuck as many women as you can. But love just one. And then you stop fucking around. Understand?

Then you say something that indicates "but I love more than one woman":

If by polyamory you mean loving more than one woman as friends/family members, I do that all the time.

How am I supposed to interpret you dude? But anyway, with regards this second quote of yours: yeah, that's what I mean. And I also mean that if you want to consummate that love, then it's cool too.

Few women would say: "Go ahead, boink whatever comes around the corner, and then come back and boink me, I don't care."

Maybe I should move to Australia.

Hey, this is all in my head so far...

[divine focus]

If you really believe in equal polyamory within your psyche, there will be no feelings of jealousy.

I'm not free to believe in other than that which my emotions tell me?

Beliefs are very deep-rooted alignments and are not easily changed. You may choose to believe what you wish if you are capable, but thinking that you believe something is not necessarily believing. Your "sentiments" or psychological dynamics will elucidate what you actually believe if you can pay attention. The point, though, is not to be changing beliefs but to simply notice them without judgment. Accepting them automatically neutralizes their power; soft appreciation lifts your perception above the identification with the belief, allowing you an objective clarity.

[brokenhead]

Yeah, Laird, there are a few women I love very much. I am a single guy, currently not seeing anyone. Being unmarried has many drawbacks, I can tell you. When I was in my twenties, I had three long-term intimate relationships that mattered. They didn't work out. Some say three strikes, and yer out. It may be so. But one of them could have been THE ONE; instead, I went for the other, with very painful results.

Nowadays - I am a surprisingly healthy 51 years old - I get to love whom I want. I have to answer to nobody. Yet there is far more often than not the empty side of the bed.

Laird, in all honesty, I was just squawking, you know? The last person that should be giving another guy advice about women is me. My painful encounters with women are long past - so are the meaningful ones. If you're talking about sexual intimacy, that is. Otherwise, in the workplace and when I go out - I get along with women famously. Because I am not always on the make. I like the companionship of some women because of who they are, ya know? Of course, a lot of younger women are shallow and irritating, but I do not need to hang out with any of them. I do not need to hang out with anybody. Family and friends.

I guess what I would tell any young man is that when you have the love of your life in front of you, keep her there. No one owed you this chance, and you may not get another.

[spelnxpert]

Laird, apprec your response.

Sure, loving and showing love to others can produce positive results depending on their needs and mentality, but don't you think the older and wiser you become the less you need your family and friends to express love, for you to do the right thing?

[Sapius]

BTW, Laird, could you please point me to the "dictionary" link you actually use on-line? Or anybody else please. Dictionary.com is but a collection of further links.

Actually I use dictionary.com. I haven't found it to be but a collection of further links - it actually provides plenty of definitions on the page itself. Here's an example - the page that defines "dictionary": http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dictionary?r=75.

Thanks mate.

[Laird]

Yeah, Laird, there are a few women I love very much. I am a single guy, currently not seeing anyone. Being unmarried has many drawbacks, I can tell you.

Mate, you don't have to tell me - I'm living it too.

When I was in my twenties, I had three long-term intimate relationships that mattered. They didn't work out. Some say three strikes, and yer out. It may be so. But one of them could have been THE ONE; instead, I went for the other, with very painful results.

Yeah, it's hard to live with the knowledge that you could right now probably be in a great long-term relationship except for a mistake that you made.

Nowadays - I am a surprisingly healthy 51 years old - I get to love whom I want. I have to answer to nobody. Yet there is far more often than not the empty side of the bed.

I know what you mean. I'm only 30 and I don't even have an other side of the bed anymore - I sleep on a single bed. Still, it's not completely hopeless - I get out to the local pubs (there are only three where I live - total population of my isolated town is in the low thousands) every now and then and some of the women there seem to like me well enough. I can at least find female friendship if I go out a bit more, if not lovers. Then there's always the internet. Not quite as satisfying but I've been in an internet relationship since mid-late last year, and it's a very warm, fun and loving one. She accepts polyamoury, not that I'm seeing anyone else right now.

Laird, in all honesty, I was just squawking, you know?

Heh, I was wondering. :-)

The last person that should be giving another guy advice about women is me. My painful encounters with women are long past - so are the meaningful ones. If you're talking about sexual intimacy, that is. Otherwise, in the workplace and when I go out - I get along with women famously. Because I am not always on the make. I like the companionship of some women because of who they are, ya know?

Yup, I know what you mean. Women are human beings, and all human beings have their own unique quirks and character, some of which are very endearing.

Of course, a lot of younger women are shallow and irritating, but I do not need to hang out with any of them. I do not need to hang out with anybody. Family and friends.

Younger women hey? I guess now's the time to reveal that last year I was randomly chatted up on Skype by a female primary school teacher in her twenties from Queensland (a couple of thousand kilometres from where I live), and things seemed to be going along pretty well, except that she slipped up and I discovered that she was actually a fourteen year old female high school student! :-P Anyway she's a sweetie and we still chat occasionally (totally platonic of course - I'm not a paedophile). It's surprising how adult fourteen year olds actually are, or can be when they try.

I guess what I would tell any young man is that when you have the love of your life in front of you, keep her there. No one owed you this chance, and you may not get another.

Great advice.

[Laird]

Laird, apprec your response.

You're welcome. Just out of curiosity, your name's a play on "spelling expert", isn't it? You're having a bit of a laugh - am I right?

Sure, loving and showing love to others can produce positive results depending on their needs and mentality, but don't you think the older and wiser you become the less you need your family and friends to express love, for you to do the right thing?

I do think that.

[Laird]

Beliefs are very deep-rooted alignments and are not easily changed. You may choose to believe what you wish if you are capable, but thinking that you believe something is not necessarily believing. Your "sentiments" or psychological dynamics will elucidate what you actually believe if you can pay attention. The point, though, is not to be changing beliefs but to simply notice them without judgment. Accepting them automatically neutralizes their power; soft appreciation lifts your perception above the identification with the belief, allowing you an objective clarity.

Hmm, interesting. I guess what you're saying (and which I agree with) is that beliefs occur at different levels - that which we consciously choose to believe might differ from that which is in our deeper subconscious, from which emotions spring.

The point where we probably disagree is in our capacity to change our subconscious beliefs, or to at least work in opposition to them. Sure, it's useful to "objectively" recognise where a particular emotion is coming from, but that doesn't mean that we have to simply accept its consequences. Should I abstain from sky-diving simply because my innate fear tells me that deep down I don't really believe in it? "Feel the fear and do it anyway" is a great motto to live by, and it applies to more than just fear.

[divine focus]

Fear or apprehension about sky-diving doesn't mean you don't "believe in it." It just means you believe it's dangerous. If you go sky-diving anyway to conquer your fear, then you believe it's beneficial to overcome your fears. Most actions or decisions involve much more than one belief. Belief systems cover a vast amount of territory, and their structures and dynamics within you are very intricate.

[brokenhead]

I discovered that she was actually a fourteen year old female high school student! :-P Anyway she's a sweetie and we still chat occasionally (totally platonic of course - I'm not a paedophile).

Just remember: Fourteen'll get you twenty.

[Sapius]

BH: Yeah, Laird, there are a few women I love very much. I am a single guy, currently not seeing anyone. Being unmarried has many drawbacks, I can tell you.

Mate, you don't have to tell me - I'm living it too.

I’m just curious; drawbacks such as?

[Laird]

I’m just curious; [being unmarried has] drawbacks such as?

Well, the main and obvious one is that you don't have someone to share romantic/sexual love and affection with, which for most people are very satisfying and rewarding things to share. The other one that comes to mind is that in practical matters a partnership can be more effective than a "sole trader" so to speak - tasks can be divided up and there's less individual effort required. Then there's also the fact that a good marriage is a source of emotional support and encouragement, and a good way to learn about yourself and someone else, both of which most people seem to enjoy.

On the other hand, I've always said that I never want to get married. The older that I get the more appealing it seems though. I still don't think that I'll ever go through the whole ceremony business of marriage, but I would like to have a long-term relationship.

[Sapius]

I’m just curious; [being unmarried has] drawbacks such as?

Well, the main and obvious one is that you don't have someone to share romantic/sexual love and affection with, which for most people are very satisfying and rewarding things to share. The other one that comes to mind is that in practical matters a partnership can be more effective than a "sole trader" so to speak - tasks can be divided up and there's less individual effort required. Then there's also the fact that a good marriage is a source of emotional support and encouragement, and a good way to learn about yourself and someone else, both of which most people seem to enjoy.

On the other hand, I've always said that I never want to get married. The older that I get the more appealing it seems though. I still don't think that I'll ever go through the whole ceremony business of marriage, but I would like to have a long-term relationship.

What about children?

[Laird]

What about children?

Holy canoly, there's plenty of reasons for me to avoid them like the plague (well, not in general - I love kids - just as in fathering my own). By no means the least is that the planet is already overpopulated. If I wanted kids I'd probably adopt. Primarily though I'm concerned to avoid the responsibility and commitment. I love and cherish my self-focussed freedom and there's no way that I'm willing to devote the better part of my life to the upbringing of other people, despite the numerous joys and satisfactions that it would undoubtedly bring.

What's your position on these matters Sap? I take it that you're not married, but do you have any romantic/sexual attachments? Would you ever get married? Would you have kids? I know that you like your privacy so no hard feelings if you choose not to answer these questions.

[Sapius]

Laird,

I love and cherish my self-focussed freedom and there's no way that I'm willing to devote the better part of my life to the upbringing of other people, despite the numerous joys and satisfactions that it would undoubtedly bring.

And you think your self-focused freedom will remain intact in a long-term relationship? I’m not saying that that would necessarily be the case, but what do you think?

I know that you like your privacy so no hard feelings if you choose not to answer these questions.

I don’t really mind you asking at all, and I can politely decline where need be.

What's your position on these matters Sap?

I hope you can understand my position, but you don’t have to necessarily agree.

I take responsibilities very seriously once I decide to carry it out, and I genuinely care about others, hence I wouldn’t like to place myself in a position where I might have to choose between my ‘self-focused freedom’ and the needs and priorities of my partner. In any such relationship, or say marriage, the key word is ‘compromise’, without which it won’t work, and I am not prepared to waste a moment of my extremely precious conscious life to such an easily avoidable situation by not getting into a relationship in the first place, and at the same time avoiding the hurt a partner might experience otherwise.

I take it that you're not married, but do you have any romantic/sexual attachments?

What do you mean by "attachments"? Do you mean ‘relationship’ or the philosophical kind? However, it’s hard to express, but although I have very strong and focused feelings, but I don’t have “attachments” to anything at all, not even to a long-term relationship I had more than 15 years ago for about three years. We still are regularly in touch and she considers me her very best friend. We had quite an open understanding, and hence, although quite romantically involved, practicality took precedence, and neither had any emotional problems. It was great while it lasted, no regrets.

Would you ever get married?

Not a chance, mate.

Would you have kids?

I think I may already have, just that I’m not aware of it ;-P

You see, once a person like me has little interest to get laid so to speak, it so happens that it showers like cats and dogs. Most of them are so impressed with what I say, that it is hard for them not to know me better, and I cannot help but at times oblige. But I never lie and make sure that a ‘no strings attached’ message is conveyed much in advance, otherwise I have moved away the moment I felt a romance is about to brew on the other side.

Kids? There are others doing the job quite well. I am quite comfortable with all ages though, but 3 years and up, and can communicate quite well irrelevant of ones age, beliefs or background. I become them in a way, and most open up to me quite easily. Human psychology is essentially the same, and if I can know myself, knowing someone else is not that difficult really.

[brokenhead]

Kids? I am quite comfortable with all ages, but 3 years and up, and can communicate quite well irrelevant of ones age, beliefs or background. I become them in a way, and most open up to me quite easily. Human psychology is essentially the same, and if I can know myself, knowing someone else is not that difficult really.

Yeah, 3 and up is nice. Before that, they are all moist and crinkly and are like little marsupial joeys fallen out of a pouch. Once they start talking, they immediately get more amusing and they start smelling better to boot.

[brokenhead]

Hey, cool, Sapius!! I was replying to your post at exactly the same time you were editing the quote I used! Check it out!!!