Society for ego validation.

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Neil,
"If I take risks I might fail and end up worse off than I started. Therefore since I am the voice of rationality I will not take risks!" Plus umm... don't only failures end up stuck in a situation they don't want to be in, playing the role of a victim? "You can't fail if you don't try!"
Ironically, courageous men don’t take unnecessary risks. People who take big risks are not rational, they are gamblers with their lives, they are betting on outcomes that probably won’t happen, and they are willing to suffer for years as a means to reach their jackpot goals.

A spiritual man asks, “what the hell have I been doing for all these years? Has it been worth all this misery? What have I gained besides plight and stress? "
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maestro
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by maestro »

Cory Duchesne wrote:Maestro, have you yourself made an effort to play the Devil's advocate against the QRS? Have you done it with mild force, moderate force or full force?
"A devil's advocate is someone who takes a position for the sake of argument, This practice is generally an instructional technique." while my objections are honest, and I am not trying to instruct anybody else through poking holes in the moderators' theories.
Cory Duchesne wrote: What finer points have been exposed because of your efforts?
Well I was surprised that David thinks he and Kevin are not fully enlightened. I thought both of them (and many folks here) believed that they were so. Though of course I wasn't trying to expose any finer points and was just sharing my observations about the forums.
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Cory Duchesne
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by Cory Duchesne »

maestro wrote:
Cory Duchesne wrote:Maestro, have you yourself made an effort to play the Devil's advocate against the QRS? Have you done it with mild force, moderate force or full force?
"A devil's advocate is someone who takes a position for the sake of argument, This practice is generally an instructional technique." while my objections are honest, and I am not trying to instruct anybody else through poking holes in the moderators' theories.
The difference between your honest objects and the objections of someone playing devils advocate I think are pretty trivial. They will both produce a very similar effect.

However, lo and behold, the moderators did a radio show where Dan played Devil's advocate against Quinn and Solway. Check it out here. However, that alone may give you very little satisfaction (assuming anything can).

Luckily, the old radio shows have been transcribed onto Kevin's website. I'm not sure if any of them will expose the finer points any better than Rowden's Devils advocate effort.

I thought The Future of the Species was a good show due to the guest's effort at defending a popular 'everything is uncertain' position.
maestro wrote:
Cory Duchesne wrote: What finer points have been exposed because of your efforts?
Well I was surprised that David thinks he and Kevin are not fully enlightened. I thought both of them (and many folks here) believed that they were so.
Personally, it matters very little to me what the moderators think they are, or even what they really are. It's largely about how what they say 'fits into' or effects the way I'm currently seeing things.

I do sympathize with your position though. When someone takes a position as strong as the mods do, the stakes suddenly become very high. Encountering such is very anxiety arousing and often indignation and desire follow as naturally as the dark after sunset.


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Last edited by Cory Duchesne on Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Imadrongo
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by Imadrongo »

Ryan Rudolph wrote:Ironically, courageous men don’t take unnecessary risks. People who take big risks are not rational, they are gamblers with their lives, they are betting on outcomes that probably won’t happen, and they are willing to suffer for years as a means to reach their jackpot goals.
Courage is basically defined as taking risks. Courageous men are willing to face danger rather than hide from it. Irrational? If you value your survival and contentment as #1.
Ryan Rudolph wrote:A spiritual man asks, “what the hell have I been doing for all these years? Has it been worth all this misery? What have I gained besides plight and stress? "
Ironically I would have thought a spiritual man, who knows he doesn't really exist, would be more apt to ask "what have I been hiding from all these years when I don't even exist?!"
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Neil wrote:
Courage is basically defined as taking risks. Courageous men are willing to face danger rather than hide from it. Irrational? If you value your survival and contentment as #1.
I think you’ve been watching too many Steven Seagul movies Neil, you may want to switch your genre at Blockbuster for awhile…
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Cory Duchesne
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by Cory Duchesne »

According to my sources, one of the most common messages on Steven Segal's answering machine:

"Hello, this is blockbuster, you have 7 overdue Steven Segal movies"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think Neil's problem is that he has trouble differentiating between this world, and this one.

God knows, he may keep some sort of scoring system in his head in hopes of gaining a level up and extra hit points.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

LOL…

Actually, games like contra and double dragon aren’t really appropriate for Neil because they require cooperation with other humans, here is a better alternative for his twisted world view. (grand theft auto)

Games like GTA do a great job to re-condition the murder, rape, steal mentality that Neil has grown to cherish so much.
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Imadrongo
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by Imadrongo »

And let me guess, you play some feed the poor African missionary trip games?
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

I don’t play games Neil, basically if you’re over the age of 18, and you’re still playing video games, you probably have a deep anxiety of reality.

However, video games designed for children can be beneficial, as certain types of games aid in their development.
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Imadrongo
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by Imadrongo »

Ryan Rudolph wrote:I don’t play games Neil, basically if you’re over the age of 18, and you’re still playing video games, you probably have a deep anxiety of reality.
Life is a game.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Neil,
Life is a game.
how many hours of contemplation did it take you to come up with that life motto? personally, I prefer the quote by the buddha - life is suffering. It makes the stakes of the 'game' much higher.
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Imadrongo
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by Imadrongo »

There are stakes? Life is suffering? Aww poor Ryan.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Neil,
There are stakes? Life is suffering? Aww poor Ryan.
'Life is suffering' is just an empty fact, however, an enlightened thinker barely suffers at all compared to those caught in Samsara. Simply stating this fact doesn’t imply a desire for sympathy…

you seem to have many associations that are incorrect. For instance you associate stark observations of reality with ones desire for motherly sympathy, or you associate wisdom with Christian morality, it seems to me that you don’t actually understand what I'm saying to you, but rather you interpret the words through your own preconceived notions.

You don’t realize that language can be used to point to ways of understanding beyond your preconceived associations.

my definitons are different than yours, and you don't seem capable of understanding it. You are like a robot stuck on ignorance mode.
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skipair
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Post by skipair »

Neil and Ryan,

I like seeing you guys debate in a sense because its almost a perfect replication of debates going on in my head all the time. I also think you're both right in different contexts. Neil has the survival of the fittest approach, if you will, which is very real in this world. There are terrorists or even people on the street where it doesn't matter what you say to them, they want to kill you. In those and in infinite more examples the rule of the jungle is the law, and it will be about who pulls the trigger first.

On the other hand, there is also more to life than just survival. There is the question of how you survive. And for a man interested in thought it does indeed take risk and courage to really get anywhere - for its about the application of ideas and the active practice, just like anything else.

Whats interesting to me is that it seems you both have completely shut doors to the other's perspective. Neither of you are budging at all, yet at the same time, by debating each other you are abandoning what you claim your values to be. If Neil's perspective is the way to go, Ryan is obviously a pathetic excuse for what it means to live with vibrancy and passion. So the answer is fuck him I have better ways to spend my time. If Ryan's perspective is right, Neil is like a small, stubborn child who refuses to consider the fact that he could be wrong, and that there is still much about life yet to be discovered. The same answer would apply - there are more productive ways to spend my time.

My challenge to you is if you actually believe what you write, put your money where your mouth is. A message board, espcially one like this, shouldn't look like a group of hens clucking for entertainment. You got the ideas, but you got the balls to Get It Done? Prove it.

With that, I'll stop my clucking.

best, Skipair
John Galt
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by John Galt »

The only way to truly validate the ego is realizing that it serves as no more than another manifestation of your physical self and must, ergo, be both satiated and surpassed. One cannot do one without the other, however. You must satiate the ego to surpass it, and surpass it to satiate it. This has been known for aeons, yet repressed by the mainstream of society. Curiously, the american aborigine savages knew of this paradox, and managed to address it. It was only after the curse of the white man outlawed their religious practices that they fell into ruin and disarray.

Curiously, we possess the necessary chemicals and substances for ego transcendence. Yet, in its own selfish interests, the goverment repress that which could finally make us free. To break down the mind body barrier is to free oneself from unnecessary dichotomies like life/death, male/female, yes/no, and so on. Only once one has melted ones ego and transcended mere humanity can we actually know the truth of the cosmos. Timothy Leary learned this truth and became persecuted for the crime of enlightening humanity.

So, cast off your so-called clean lives and experience ego transcendence. The crusade against hallucinogenics is immoral, and represses our basic rights to transcedental understanding.
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David Quinn
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by David Quinn »

maestro,
DQ: It is the basis of all logic and consciousness. When a person's thinking conforms perfectly with A=A, when there are no contradictions or assumptions contained therein, it cannot be rationally challenged.

M: You are saying if philosophy is logically consistent, it cannot be challenged. But what if it is logically consistent but is not supported empirically. It can be challenged on those grounds.
Only if it makes empirically-testable assertions - which, if it consisted of wise thought from top to bottom, it wouldn't.

The great truths of life aren't empirically-testable, but they do apply to everything within the empirical world and beyond out of logical necessity.

Thus the axioms of the philosophy (and deductions thereof) are the interesting bits, assuming it is logically consistent.
Wise thinking doesn't use any axioms or assumptions, other than A=A.

(I guess your axiom is cause and effect. Which satisfies consistency and empiricism. Though cause and effect could be tricky to define, where does the cause end and effect begin? )
Cause and effect is a logical truth which arises out of the very nature of what it is to be a "thing". In other words, it is logically impossible to imagine a "thing" without causes without falling into self-contradiction.

Where does a cause end and an effect begin? That's a good question. In a deeper sense, there is no beginning or end to anything, which means there aren't really "things" in Nature. And when there are no "things" in Nature, causality becomes superfluous.

Causality is only a reality when "things" are a reality.

DQ: 2 and 3 are false. Neither of us are perfect sages, and thus we are still vulnerable to falling away from the path, even if only subtly.

M: What do you mean by perfect sage.
A perfect sage is someone who is effortlessly conscious of the nature of Reality at all times, without interruption, and never gets taken in by the core illusion of "maya", not even for an instant. By contrast, an imperfect sage is only conscious of Reality intermittently.

An imperfect sage fully understands the nature of Reality and can talk about it with ease, but his own karma is yet to be entirely burned away and he still falls foul of subtle forms of delusion. These subtle delusions are more to do with habit and emotion. They are not intellectual in nature.

Why should a sage be not subject to cause and effect but follow some arbitrary mental model of perfection? There is inconsistency here.
Being without delusion is what defines a perfect sage. So if a person is still experiencing delusion, then he isn't a perfect sage, by definition. But whether he is a perfect sage or not, he is still fully subject to cause and effect either way.

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maestro
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by maestro »

David Quinn wrote:Wise thinking doesn't use any axioms or assumptions, other than A=A.
Alright just by using A=A how can you disprove the existence of a creator god. Or an individual soul in each of us which survives to the end of the universe.
David Quinn wrote:The great truths of life aren't empirically-testable, but they do apply to everything within the empirical world and beyond out of logical necessity.
And I thought logic was a way to infer stuff given a set of axioms, and without these axioms you cannot proceed, as you cannot cook food with just a recipe. While you are saying just using one rule of logic A=A everything can be instantly known? A very compact representation indeed. Do you think that we can deduce all of the universe by making some computer program that just relies on A=A.
David Quinn wrote:A perfect sage is someone who is effortlessly conscious of the nature of Reality at all times, without interruption, and never gets taken in by the core illusion of "maya", not even for an instant. By contrast, an imperfect sage is only conscious of Reality intermittently.

An imperfect sage fully understands the nature of Reality and can talk about it with ease, but his own karma is yet to be entirely burned away and he still falls foul of subtle forms of delusion. These subtle delusions are more to do with habit and emotion. They are not intellectual in nature.
You mean an imperfect sage's intellect gets clouded from time to time. The statement that a perfect sage could exist and an imperfect sage can become perfect. Could it be shown through just using A=A.
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David Quinn
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by David Quinn »

maestro,
DQ: The great truths of life aren't empirically-testable, but they do apply to everything within the empirical world and beyond out of logical necessity.

M: And I thought logic was a way to infer stuff given a set of axioms, and without these axioms you cannot proceed, as you cannot cook food with just a recipe.
Instead of axioms and assumptions, we can use definitions. In my view, good philosophic thinking consists of consciously creating flawless definitions for the task at hand and pursuing their logical implications to the very end. If this is done properly, then at no point does anything have to be taken on blind faith.

DQ: Wise thinking doesn't use any axioms or assumptions, other than A=A.

m: Alright just by using A=A how can you disprove the existence of a creator god.
If we define God to mean utterly everything, then the idea of a creator God (Christian-style) automatically becomes superfluous.

Or an individual soul in each of us which survives to the end of the universe.
You would have to define what you mean by "individual soul". If you mean our true nature, then yes, that will survive to the end of the universe (which, of course, has no end). This is because our true nature is identical to the totality of all there is.

While you are saying just using one rule of logic A=A everything can be instantly known? A very compact representation indeed. Do you think that we can deduce all of the universe by making some computer program that just relies on A=A.
A=A + consciously-created definitions + the courage to pursue one's thinking all the way.

DQ: A perfect sage is someone who is effortlessly conscious of the nature of Reality at all times, without interruption, and never gets taken in by the core illusion of "maya", not even for an instant. By contrast, an imperfect sage is only conscious of Reality intermittently.

An imperfect sage fully understands the nature of Reality and can talk about it with ease, but his own karma is yet to be entirely burned away and he still falls foul of subtle forms of delusion. These subtle delusions are more to do with habit and emotion. They are not intellectual in nature.

M: You mean an imperfect sage's intellect gets clouded from time to time.
It's a loss of consciousness, a kind of forgetfulness, not to the extent that distortions begin to enters into one's intellectual understanding, but enough to lose full clarity of Reality in the moment and cause one to make decisions that are less than ideal.

The statement that a perfect sage could exist and an imperfect sage can become perfect. Could it be shown through just using A=A.
As long as it is possible to be permanently without delusion (while remaining conscious), then the imperfect sage has every chance of reaching perfection.

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tooyi
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by tooyi »

maestro wrote:Or an individual soul in each of us which survives to the end of the universe.
If you consider the moment now. It is past already but not gone. The year, month, day, hour, minute, second, moment to next is being experienced there as you in timeless infinity over and over again. It is not that there is a being who travels but infinitely many points of you experiencing the causal relation of past present and future in all of its causal body of being. That the experience is continuous is just the nature of the relationship. It doesn't mean you own it.

That which was, being no longer you, while still also being your cause is just a point of perspective but completely irrelevant. The illusion is to become attached to the permanence of self as separate from the totality when in fact you are just the experience of a causal relationship. Suffering is the apparent reality of emotions struggling to keep the creeping of this truth from rising into consciousness of who you really are.
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maestro
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by maestro »

David Quinn wrote:If we define God to mean utterly everything, then the idea of a creator God (Christian-style) automatically becomes superfluous.
Could it not happen that an advanced species of aliens created the earth as some sort of experiment. The creators are the Gods. This is logically consistent right?
David Quinn wrote:You would have to define what you mean by "individual soul"
How about individual soul meaning the feeling of awareness that every human experiences. How will you prove this awareness should disappear with death. Could it not happen that the awareness leaves the body and enters a new body (the popular view of reincarnation). Seems to be logically consistent.


I would reject both on the basis of empiricism, the first because there is no evidence of the handiwork of a god and evolution seems like a good fit to the world we observe around us (maybe the mechanism of evolution is still not clear). The second based on evidence from neuroscience, if there is such an observer what functionality does he have without the brain, ie without the eyes he cannot see, without the neocortex he cannot think, so the observer seems to be more of an artifact of the language. Though without this evidence it can be argued that the observer is a kind of driver of the body, with the thinking faculties, and the senses are his instruments, how would you argue for the nonexistence of this observer.
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divine focus
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by divine focus »

maestro wrote:Though without this evidence it can be argued that the observer is a kind of driver of the body, with the thinking faculties, and the senses are his instruments, how would you argue for the nonexistence of this observer.
Why would you even want to, if not only to prove the supremacy of thought above all. Thought is an instrument as much as the senses.
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maestro
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by maestro »

divine focus wrote:Why would you even want to, if not only to prove the supremacy of thought above all. Thought is an instrument as much as the senses.
You mean you accept this observer. How does it reconcile with the neuroscience. Ie with every sensing attribute including thought stripped off does there remain anything at all?
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divine focus
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by divine focus »

I don't reconcile it with neuroscience. Neuroscience is very dense, too dense for my tastes, though I'm sure it's possible to reconcile. The framework for reconciliation may not fully exist at present, though.
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maestro
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by maestro »

divine focus wrote:I don't reconcile it with neuroscience. Neuroscience is very dense, too dense for my tastes, though I'm sure it's possible to reconcile. The framework for reconciliation may not fully exist at present, though.
Let me rephrase, what I meant to say was that if a certain portion of the brain gets damaged the capacity for thinking is impaired, something else gets damaged then sight gets impaired, or hearing gets impaired. So in effect all these perceptual qualities are of the physical brain, and there is no observer behind it all. Because if there is an observer, what qualities does he have of his own?
tooyi
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Re: Society for ego validation.

Post by tooyi »

Because if there is an observer, what qualities does he have of his own?
There is no observer. Only every thing that is observed.
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