Isn't death more wonderful than life!

[maestro]

Some of my acquaintances were praising this guy to high heaven saying how they appreciate his zest for life. And his insights on life.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07262/818671-85.stm

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=1

And what is the guy talking about achieving your dreams and whatnot. Really I would think that half of the world is mired in poverty and make barely enough to subsist Is life really about fulfilling all your dreams, and live it to the fullest (whatever that means)?

This got me wondering that what is so great about life that, somebody should be morose if they are told that they have only a few months to live. The way I see is that all is cause and effect and being living is no different from being dead in any meaningful sense. Thus since you are also driven by causes and the rock is also driven by causes how does it matter. Further being alive entails a lot of suffering due to consciousness and the capacity for pain. One should rather celebrate such a news. Think more of release from a prison.

I believe the Genius would be rather delighted to learn of his imminent death and to become one again with the universe, without any more capacity for pain.

Isn't that why in Buddhism the ultimate release Parinirvana is only upon death.

[Imadrongo]

The teaching at this forum is basically the will to death, the will against life. You fit in well. "Life is suffering, therefore we should renounce all life because suffering is bad."

[maestro]

The point was more that since life and death are mere illusions, death is a more preferable state due to the lack of pain and suffering.

You irrationally assume that life is good, do you realize that this is a mere demonstration of causality i.e. the west's obsession with denying death and upholding life as the highest value has lead to your prejudices.

Seen under the clear lens of logic life is a kind of pattern of stable chemical patterns which formed in the chain of causality these patterns have self regulation and have capacity for pain/pleasure which furthers their sustenance and reproduction. There is nothing to say there is any value in this process of causality than say the rusting of iron, big deal.

[Imadrongo]

maestro,

The point was more that since life and death are mere illusions, death is a more preferable state due to the lack of pain and suffering.

Why don't you go commit suicide? If life is that bad that you are in pain and suffering and you need to run away from it then you either need to A) commit suicide, or B) adopt Truth or God as your Lord and worship his healing powers on your meaninglessness.

You irrationally assume that life is good, do you realize that this is a mere demonstration of causality i.e. the west's obsession with denying death and upholding life as the highest value has lead to your prejudices.

Assuming this is all a mere demonstration of causality I guess I wasn't destined to be a fatalist. I'm not denying death, but I'm not denying life either.

Seen under the clear lens of logic...

More like under the keen eyes of the oppressed who is looking to lash out in vengeance upon life and all those who enjoyed it at his expense. And I believe these keen eyes are usually the best wielders of their logic.

[maestro]

More like under the keen eyes of the oppressed who is looking to lash out in vengeance upon life and all those who enjoyed it at his expense. And I believe these keen eyes are usually the best wielders of their logic.

See this is again something which is all too common nowadays, do not think anything just enjoy life. Thinking will make you mad and bitter and is for sore losers.

I guess you are a "get a life dude and party kind of guy".

[Iolaus]

It's not as though you can enjoy your nonconscious state. You won't enjoy your release from prison - there will be no you to know you have been released. What's the point of fighting toward consciousness, only to lapse into total nonconsciousness?

And isn't it funny that these guys praise all things masculine, yet the most divine of male attributes - purpose, intent - they deny to their 'God' that they call the totality.

Kevin, David and Dan will lapse into the utter end of the feminine - compliant, unconscious, physical matter.

[maestro]

It's not as though you can enjoy your nonconscious state. You won't enjoy your release from prison - there will be no you to know you have been released. What's the point of fighting toward consciousness, only to lapse into total nonconsciousness?

Since there is mind there remains no question of enjoyment or whatever. These terms only apply to states of conscious mind, but along with this enjoyment also comes suffering and the whole charade is for the propagation of the species. Your enjoyment and suffering are there because they allowed the species to be stable and reproduce, and have no greater purpose.

[Ignis Fatuus]

The way I see is that all is cause and effect and being living is no different from being dead in any meaningful sense.

You're alive and thinking about the meaning of life and how there's no meaningful sense to your life or your death, in that it's all the same...Meaningless, predetermined, fixed, organization...Doesn't it feel like you're in control of your life. Isn't it worthwhile to pretend?

life and death are mere illusions

How can you be sure?

Seen under the clear lens of logic life is a kind of pattern of stable chemical patterns which formed in the chain of causality these patterns have self regulation and have capacity for pain/pleasure which furthers their sustenance and reproduction. There is nothing to say there is any value in this process of causality than say the rusting of iron, big deal.

Doesn't this mean there's no value in what you post? (...?)

I guess you are a "get a life dude and party kind of guy".

It's all the same one way or another: Cause and effect.

[Sapius]

Seen under the clear lens of logic life is a kind of pattern of stable chemical patterns which formed in the chain of causality these patterns have self regulation and have capacity for pain/pleasure which furthers their sustenance and reproduction. There is nothing to say there is any value in this process of causality than say the rusting of iron, big deal.

Well, the big deal for me is that I can use the lens of logic, but the form of reasoning and the conclusions accepted are all up to an individual, and by choosing death, I won’t be able to enjoy the reasoning part exactly, which helps me think over life and death in the first place.

As for rusting of iron; no thing is big deal once known, but the real question is, do I know it all? However, I can always take the stand of “it’s no big deal”, or “that does not really matter” since I really know causality, and dwell in and of reality, but yet, someone arguing against me would definitely interest me and may be excite me, for I however would remain a self-centered Self. It’s always a matter of what rocks my boat, irrelevant of what it is.



To Neil you mentioned;

I guess you are a "get a life dude and party kind of guy".

In my opinion, and I think you will agree; it is always much better to use the lens of logic rather than guess work.

[Ignis Fatuus]

maestro,

I believe the Genius would be rather delighted to learn of his imminent death and to become one again with the universe, without any more capacity for pain.

Then you don't have the slightest clue as to what a genius is.

And what is the guy talking about achieving your dreams and whatnot.

From URL,

His wife and children, he said, "mean everything to me. They give a purpose to life and a depth of joy that no job [and I've had some of the most awesome jobs in the world] can begin to provide.

I find that very respectable.

[Imadrongo]

maestro,

NM: More like under the keen eyes of the oppressed who is looking to lash out in vengeance upon life and all those who enjoyed it at his expense. And I believe these keen eyes are usually the best wielders of their logic.

M: See this is again something which is all too common nowadays, do not think anything just enjoy life. Thinking will make you mad and bitter and is for sore losers.

Thinking doesn't make you mad and bitter. It can go either way. Thinking isn't for losers, but it isn't the end all in life, it is only a tool.

I guess you are a "get a life dude and party kind of guy".

I almost never party. =\

[Pincho Paxton]

Death is supposed to be better than life, even if you do not beleive in this linear nonsense. So the argument does not gain anything from living a life that is automated, that death will be better.

[Ignis Fatuus]

Let's hope so.

[Unidian]

The teaching at this forum is basically the will to death, the will against life. You fit in well. "Life is suffering, therefore we should renounce all life because suffering is bad."

I won't comment on whether or not or not that is truly "the teaching at this forum," because the administrators of it and I have some differences and that may well be the case in some regards. But in other "wisdom traditions" such as Zen and Taoism, "renouncing" anything is inferior to seeing truth directly. The ironic catch, of course, is that in so doing, we must renounce the practice of filtering reality through our various concepts and illusions, which often does quite naturally translate into practical consequences. But the idea is not to prefer one state over another, such as death over life, nirvana over samsara, etc. Instead, one is to realize that these distinctions have limited meaning and, as Chuang Tzu put it, "rest in the infinite" instead of focusing on them. The practical consequences that follow from this are due to a cause and effect relationship like any other.

Geez, that sounds kind of "QRS," but they aren't wrong about everything. ;)

[Unidian]

neil,

Thinking doesn't make you mad and bitter. It can go either way. Thinking isn't for losers

There are two kinds of thinking. The first is the sort everybody does, which is shallow, limited, fashionable, and harmless. That kind of thinking won't make anyone mad or bitter, I agree.

But the second kind of thinking, which is directed solely toward discovering reality, is very much "for losers" in the sense that if you do any significant amount of it, you are going to isolate yourself from the society and almost everything it values. If "losers" are defined as persons who do not conform to social and cultural expectations, then it is impossible that anyone who is not a "loser" in the eyes of the non-philosophical world could have anything worthwhile to say about philosophy.

Your statement makes it quite clear that you have done little or no substantial thinking. I don't mean that to be antagonistic, but I realize it is going to sound that way. Unfortunately, there is no other way to put it.

[Boyan]

neil,

Thinking doesn't make you mad and bitter. It can go either way. Thinking isn't for losers

There are two kinds of thinking. The first is the sort everybody does, which is shallow, limited, fashionable, and harmless. That kind of thinking won't make anyone mad or bitter, I agree.

But the second kind of thinking, which is directed solely toward discovering reality, is very much "for losers" in the sense that if you do any significant amount of it, you are going to isolate yourself from the society and almost everything it values. If "losers" are defined as persons who do not conform to social and cultural expectations, then it is impossible that anyone who is not a "loser" in the eyes of the non-philosophical world could have anything worthwhile to say about philosophy.
.

But you can be a deep thinker and engage, at least sometimes, in what the herd calls 'real life'. It doesn't make one literally incapable of it. It's like being in love - engaging in delusion, if you will, and knowing it.

[extinct]

neil,

But the second kind of thinking, which is directed solely toward discovering reality, is very much "for losers" in the sense that if you do any significant amount of it, you are going to isolate yourself from the society and almost everything it values. If "losers" are defined as persons who do not conform to social and cultural expectations

The above is an interesting post, and correct. However, who is defining
whom?
To a person, who does have a clear understanding of reality, the surface level thinking of the average is of little value. It is mostly an inconvenience.

Death is the end of an sentient existent, and is the end of consciousness.
A person can only exist in a positive manner if there is enough positive value to pursue and sustain a positive existence.

[xerox]

...

[extinct]

The inevitability of death forms the basis of LIVING truthfully.

I would say it is the desire to live that forms the basis of which you speak.

Extrapolating suicidal thoughts in response to this lesson speaks to ones defence against truth. It reflects one's own fears.

This part needs elaboration.

The truth hurts, after all, so in the name of avoiding suffering, it is easier to deny it, by way of psychological contrivances such as, if life is no different to death, then... die.

I have just recently stumbled across this forum. I have noticed a few posts making similar statements: "The truth hurts"
Saying the truth hurts, is like saying food hurts. (The difference being one is the abstract food for the mind, while the other is material food for the body.)
If the truth is painful then the individual in question is in some sort of denial. Truth should not be confused with circumstance.

Another way to look at it is, since there is no difference, continue, until something ultimately effects the cause of one's passing.

Pretty simple really. Dont shoot yourself becasue of it.

Isn't the difference obvious.

The suicide part is a dicey subject. The discussions I have seen in other forums amounted to pointless emotional reactions.

[xerox]

...

[Unidian]

When thinking about death, I find it useful to bear in mind that even death cannot erase a person from existence. Death has applicability only with reference to time. But time is not as "absolute" as most people imagine. Outside the framework of time, existence is eternal.

Time occurs only from the perspective of conscious substructures within the trans-temporal whole of Nature. That's a fancy way of saying that time has no more inherent existence than anything else, and that while death is very real from one polar perspective, it is meaningless from the other.

It's a matter of yin and yang, like anything else.

[Pincho Paxton]

I was dead 1000 years ago.... LOOK AT ME NOW!!!

[truth_justice]

Death is a change. Its natural. Just like the seasons. We should celebrate, rather than grief, natural death.

If celebration is too much, then at least we should not grief.

We have lost nothing, because nothing was given to us. Therefore I see no point in grieving.

[extinct]

Outside the framework of time, existence is eternal.

I reject this concept. It is false.

[Unidian]

Go ahead and reject it, then.