Reform Taoism

[Philosophaster]

I think the point is more that changing the definition of a word, or even many words, does not change the world that exists apart from the words.

[Unidian]

We need to decouple the sense of freedom from the feeling of control, that's the solution. Freedom is not in controlling the world, literally or conceptually, but in interacting with it, in the give-and-take, in the very process of life.

Agreed.

Normally, we don't feel safe unless we have a conceptual iron grip on the situation -- and so people don't feel safe unless they convince themselves that everything is under control, that the ebb and flow of life has been dammed and contained and channeled, that there is an isle of perfect certitude in the midst of it all.

Agreed again.

Why do you have to be making so much sense in here? It's interfering with my ironclad sense of certitude that you suck. If one can't even be certain of that, my god, what's left? :p

Dukkha indeed!

[vicdan]

I do suck. I am an evil, mean, cruel sonofabitch. I am an asshole, and an arrogant one at that. I just happen to be right -- nothing that should interfere with your antipathy for me. :)

[Unidian]

And can we please get over this idea that emoticons undermine the super-grave intellectual seriousness of the place and get at least a few basic smilies in here? Half the people (myself included) will attempt to use them anyway, and I think the image versions look better than the text ones, no?

:)

:p

;)

That's all you really need right there. Just three little harmless smilie faces. Is that too much to ask? :p

[Unidian]

I do suck. I am an evil, mean, cruel sonofabitch. I am an asshole, and an arrogant one at that. I just happen to be right -- nothing that should interfere with your antipathy for me.

Hehe... that's more like it.

You should be more like me. I'm right and nice (most of the time). That's why everybody lerrrrrrves me. Except the people who don't, but they don't count.

[vicdan]

But then I wouldn't be goin' with my flow, would I? I am evil to those who deserve it IMO. It's my nature. To thine own self be true and all that shit.

[Katy]

.....*looks around waiting for the world to implode*.....

[Unidian]

Things don't implode without KEROSENE.

[vicdan]

They do if I order them to! Huah!

[Katy]

They do if I order them to! Huah!

lol vic did the world lol.

[Dan Rowden]

I do suck. I am an evil, mean, cruel sonofabitch. I am an asshole, and an arrogant one at that. I just happen to be right -- nothing that should interfere with your antipathy for me. :)

7 from 8. Nice strike rate.

[Katy]

he doesn't suck?

[Dan Rowden]

Haha. Wrong guess.

[Katy]

ah, not cruel then.

[Dan Rowden]

I'm not going through all 7 to get to the obvious one.

[Dan Rowden]

Returning to the original thread subject for a moment: of what use is formal structure and authority to a Taoist anyway? If one even begins to understand the philosophy, such things are automatically superfluous, if not an anathema.

[Katy]

OKOK I confess. I knew you meant he wasn't mean.

[Unidian]

Returning to the original thread subject for a moment: of what use is formal structure and authority to a Taoist anyway? If one even begins to understand the philosophy, such things are automatically superfluous, if not an anathema.

I'm not following the question. Where do formal structure and authority come in?

[Unidian]

Wait, I forgot what thread I was in. For some reason, I thought this was the other thread. I get what you're referring to now. Yeah, the guy is off base on that. He just wants to have his own religious movement.

[Dan Rowden]

Yes, that's how it seems to me - a version of religious Toaism with a more explicit intellectual, humanist veneer, but still a veneer.

[DHodges]

And can we please get over this idea that emoticons undermine the super-grave intellectual seriousness of the place and get at least a few basic smilies in here?

n0 U c^nt u$3 $M1L13$. Th3y R ^bu$3 0f 3ng71$h 7^ngu^g3 ^nd m^k3 U g^y. ^7$0 1771t3r-8.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

n0 U c^nt u$3 $M1L13$. Th3y R ^bu$3 0f 3ng71$h 7^ngu^g3 ^nd m^k3 U g^y. ^7$0 1771t3r-8.

Translation for those who don't feel like working at it:

No you can't use smilies. They are abuse of English language and make you gay. Also illiterate.

.

[Katy]

Ah, thanks. I lost the last word there.

[Tharan]

Unidian wrote,

You may be thinking of Zen, which coalesced when traditional Indian Buddhism was brought to China (mythologically by Bodhidharma, the first patriarch) and interpreted in Taoist terms. As author Ray Grigg demonstrates in The Tao of Zen, Zen is basically Taoism with a Buddhist face.

What Nat said is correct, but zen, in its modern pop culture form, is a Japanese import. It can be traced to China obviously and Bodhidharma is certainly one of the major sages, but nearly every ceremony and practice is of specifically Japanese origin. The word "zen" is a Japanese word. The major forms of Buddhism in Japan during their warring years were Amida Buddha and zen. There is a distinct difference between the two though. Amida (Pure Land) Buddhism is a pantheon of magical and supernatural creatures, living/dead ancestors, and ceremony. Japanese Zen is distinct in its sparcity and, IMO, is not a religion at all. There is no zen God and the idea itself is irrelevant and ultimately detrimental.

[Unidian]

Zen is also not without its "shadow side," particularly with regard to the Japanese traditions Tharan mentioned. This book review of Brian Victoria's Zen at War explores some of the ways Zen thinking was used for the promotion of war propaganda in WWII Japan.