Cory: Many years down the road, a human being may achieve perfect enlightenment.
Ryan: It may be possible, but my argument is that it hasn’t happened in the past, and it hasn’t occurred in the present.
My argument is that, despite we can’t say that a perfectly enlightened being existed, a process of gradual perfection does seem apparent.
Consider the intellectual activity of the pre-socratics: Thales, Anaxagoras, Pythagoras, Heraclitus, Democritus, Parmenides - -- - now consider, what would Socrates have been without these thinkers who preceded him?
consider the following:
Euripides gave Socrates a treatise by Heraclitus, asking for his opinion. He replied, "The part I understand is excellent, and so too is, I dare say, the part I do not understand; but it needs a Delian diver to get to the bottom of it."
I think it is reasonable to guess that Socrates gave consideration to the thinkers before him and was thereby influenced, especially by the likes of Heraclitus.
So many great thinkers of great refinement and restraint have followed Greece antiquity, and the output of the Greek thinkers surely has helped a great number of individuals over the centuries live more in line with perfection.
The anguish that Soren Kierkegaard endured has brought much more light to the question of what is required for perfection.
There were a lot of issues that he dealt with, thus providing a new foundation for thinking. And let’s not forget to mention how Kierkegaard was very much influenced by Socrates.
The connections here are endless, I could go on and on. I haven’t even gone into Indian and Chinese philosophy and the role that those eastern forces have played.
The contributions of past thinkers have created an intellectual, memetic environment that raises the standard for what perfection is. Each generation pushes the limits further and further. Progress has been made, and I don't see why we should close our minds off to the goal of perfection. We might as well keep going.
Cory: Furthermore, the effort that I make in this life to overcome my imperfections, may help future humans attain an enlightenment that is closer to perfection.
Ryan: How would that work?
I would say that by consciously researching and educating myself via the output of past thinkers, and changing the quality of my communication with others, I am demonstrating that very dynamic. The effort that past thinkers have made to overcome their imperfections, has helped me, the future human, establish a more responsible relationship to life. My present relationship to life is closer to perfection than the relationship to life I had when I was.......well, no need to go into the sordid details.
The efforts I put in, the way I talk to people, the way I spend money, the way I don’t have children, the way I refrain from sex, the way I dress and tend to my appearance, the way I write, the way I read, and what i read, the way I think --- all of these little things (if they are tended to by a mind that loves wisdom and has a passion for truth and freedom) take power/volume away from the ignorant cycle of suffering, which is like a powerful river that goes round and round. You are volume in that river. Remove yourself from it and you weaken the river. You make it easier for others to step out.
But are you willing to suffer? To make sacrifices? Some of us are.
cory: If progress has been made, then there is no reason that progress cannot continue to be made --- if humanity values this mentality, then it is not unreasonable to be open minded to the possibility of perfection being reached.
Ryan: Yes, but the past progress has been achieved by imperfect individuals
In other words, imperfect individuals have succeeded at becoming more perfect.
Ryan: The present revolution is lead by imperfect individuals
Imperfect individuals are succeeding at becoming more perfect.
Ryan: the question remains: what concrete evidence is there that the future will be any different?
Well, Mesopotamia was quite a bit different than Greece. Greece was different than Rome. Rome was different than the Middle ages.
The 16th – 18th centuries were markedly different from the present age.
It seems to me that there has been a process of perfection happening. Things have gotten better.
Ryan: What is fuelling your open mindedness?
The apparent reality – there are humans who are demonstrating a drive to become more perfect. Why not be open minded? You have no better reason to be close minded, than I have to be open minded. It's either/or. Pick your poison.
Ryan: My argument is based on the fact that natural selection can only produce unique individuals by sacrificing the possibility of perfection. Uniqueness is imperfection.
Perhaps genetic engineering will eliminate uniqueness in individuals, but then we need to ask ourselves do the pros outweigh the cons?
The major positive aspect of this is that we achieve perfection, however the negative aspect is that we would be all fundamentally the same.
Why is that negative?
