Consciousness vs Unconsciousness

emma · Post by **emma** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:52 am

.and in a way following the Tao is an unconscious act whilst following my definition of God has to be conscious

Trevor Salyzyn · Post by **Trevor Salyzyn** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:08 am

I feel God therefore God exists for me.

That's a pitiful argument. How do you intend to convince anyone that your opinions are worth taking seriously?

because I believe in God and serve God God does not close his mind to me but scrutinises my every thought/word/deed

Does he also scrutinize that thought? Does he let you come up with alternative explanations? Like, for instance, your own thoughts may simply be scrutinizing themselves.

which is why believing in God is very difficult at times

You keep trying to come back to this conclusion, but I can't really see what it follows from. I see no evidence in the world around me that belief in God is difficult. I see no clear reasons in your own arguments that support this claim. Given your data, I would not achieve the same conclusion.

Trust me, it's a lot harder to change someone's mind about God than for them to accept their belief in the first place, or for them to continue believing whatever they happen to want to believe about God. It's like, they stick their goddamn head into the sand and nothing you say will ever change their mind. And then they get all proud that they "stuck to their guns". It is not noble, or particular difficult, to stubbornly hold fast to a belief despite all evidence that the belief is of poor quality.

emma · Post by **emma** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:27 am

E
I feel God therefore God exists for me.

M
That's a pitiful argument. How do you intend to convince anyone that your opinions are worth taking seriously?

I know that I will convince no-one.doesnt stop me saying what I feel

E
because I believe in God and serve God God does not close his mind to me but scrutinises my every thought/word/deed

M
Does he also scrutinize that thought? Does he let you come up with alternative explanations? Like, for instance, your own thoughts may simply be scrutinizing themselves.

yes I think about my thinking, but my measure is God.try it sometime

E
which is why believing in God is very difficult at times

M
You keep trying to come back to this conclusion, but I can't really see what it follows from. I see no evidence in the world around me that belief in God is difficult. I see no clear reasons in your own arguments that support this claim. Given your data, I would not achieve the same conclusion.

Accepting that if you follow wordly matters you deny God, that is hard. Accepting that if you love another too much you exclude God, that is hard. Accepting that any negaive thought you may have is an affront to God, that is hard. Loving those that you hate, that annoy you or piss you off, that is hard.............Do you get it yet.........Accepting that the moment you open your mouth to speak of God someone will sneer at you no matter how passionately you feel that also is hard. To see a child die and accept that God could have helped but did not for a reason beyond reason .is hard. To know Kiergegaard died young and in poverty whilst following the same God is hards

Trust me, it's a lot harder to change someone's mind about God than for them to accept their belief in the first place, or for them to continue believing whatever they happen to want to believe about God. It's like, they stick their goddamn head into the sand and nothing you say will ever change their mind. And then they get all proud that they "stuck to their guns". It is not noble, or particular difficult, to stubbornly hold fast to a belief despite all evidence that the belief is of poor quality.

I'm 45, born jewish I have studied Buddhism, Taoism, Falun Gong, Kabbalah, Humanism Jung, Freud Einstein, Christianity, islam and a lot more besides. I believed in God when I was 14 and spent years denying God I have come full circle My intention is not to recruit or change minds, rather it is to learn from others .

My Belief is not of poor quality Your objectivity is just passionless and ultimately useless

emma · Post by **emma** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:44 am

.You may reach the other side safely with all your planning and even think that you have conquered the danger ..but in fact with your safety first, logical approach you have merely echoed what many before you will have done.....dull/boring/useless

Trevor Salyzyn · Post by **Trevor Salyzyn** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:12 am

emma,

I know that I will convince no-one.doesnt stop me saying what I feel

What are you doing in a philosophy forum? If this is your real attitude, go write poetry.

yes I think about my thinking, but my measure is God.try it sometime

I measure my thoughts with a ruler, not a gut feeling.

I'm 45, born jewish I have studied Buddhism, Taoism, Falun Gong, Kabbalah, Humanism Jung, Freud Einstein, Christianity, islam and a lot more besides. I believed in God when I was 14 and spent years denying God I have come full circle My intention is not to recruit or change minds, rather it is to learn from others .

You're a 45-year old leech. You have nothing inspiring to say and nothing to teach, even after doing all that reading, so you just continue to steal ideas from others.

Your objectivity is just passionless and ultimately useless

If by "passionless" you mean "accurate" and by "useless" you mean "doesn't give emma a feeling of sunshine and daisies", then we're in agreement.

My Belief is not of poor quality

You believe based on your own emotional responses rather than logic, and are unable to produce a single convincing argument for someone you disagree with. Considering you did all this reading, and should be intimately familiar with the alternatives, you should at least be able to give some indication why the belief you chose is superior to any other random choice. It makes you feel good, and it makes you feel like you are doing something difficult? Frick, that's why Jews still worry about eating kosher food.

but in fact with your safety first, logical approach you have merely echoed what many before you will have done

And you echo countless Christians, and Kierkegaard, and all these other guys you've read. You think by being reckless and illogical you have somehow risen above being the dim echo of thinkers far greater than you'll ever be?

At least by being logical and methodical I may be able to take a few steps forward, which is more than I can say about you. Because honestly, I don't think you walked in a circle. I think you didn't move a goddamn inch in your entire 45 years. You're still a stubborn Jew, still completely convinced that you're one of "God's chosen people", and still trapped doing pointless rituals, because the difficulty of forcing yourself into thinking stupid thoughts and acting in stupid ways gives your life meaning.

dull/boring/useless

The maturity of a philosopher comes when he can read seemingly dull and boring things and find value in them. Most philosophers I've read bore the pants off the average person and their thoughts always seem useless to dumb broads; I'd gladly join the tradition of dry boring old men if it keeps bobble-headed chicks from fouling up my writing by reading anything I say.

You may reach the other side safely with all your planning and even think that you have conquered the danger

As to this "other side", I have no clue what you're talking about. I don't plan on going anywhere any time soon. I don't aimlessly hope to obtain some mystical state of enlightenment; I just solve problems when they present themselves and improve my skills. I'm more like a soccer player than a tight-rope walker. But let's say there is another side of some metaphoric cliff. I'm sure the only way to get there would be by knowing where it was, knowing where the tightrope is, practising tightrope walking on safer poles, and then, when ready, walking only as fast as you can confidently go. Putting on a blindfold and jumping is, I repeat, completely stupid.

emma · Post by **emma** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:02 am

M
What are you doing in a philosophy forum? If this is your real attitude, go write poetry.

I do and I write books that nobody wishes to read...The path is lonely and hard as we have disussed in another post

M
I measure my thoughts with a ruler, not a gut feeling.

How do you measure thoughts with a ruler?

M
You're a 45-year old leech. You have nothing inspiring to say and nothing to teach, even after doing all that reading, so you just continue to steal ideas from others.

E
I have my own ideas and have rejected much of what I have read.........I only quoted that which I hold dear. Your anger and your "insult" show you to be emotive, illogical and not fit to post on a forum which values these ideals ......Oops maybe neither of us belong here

M
If by "passionless" you mean "accurate" and by "useless" you mean "doesn't give emma a feeling of sunshine and daisies", then we're in agreement.

Since when did passionless mean accurate etc . Don't you understand the language you speak?

E
My Belief is not of poor quality

M
You believe based on your own emotional responses rather than logic, and are unable to produce a single convincing argument for someone you disagree with. Considering you did all this reading, and should be intimately familiar with the alternatives, you should at least be able to give some indication why the belief you chose is superior to any other random choice. It makes you feel good, and it makes you feel like you are doing something difficult? Frick, that's why Jews still worry about eating kosher food.

Your response to me is emotional and you have not produced a single convincing argument for someone you disagree with. Your comment about jews is a silly insult to jewish people but hey they are used to it. ........and BTW my choice makes me feel ever so humble, unworthy and useless not good etc

E
but in fact with your safety first, logical approach you have merely echoed what many before you will have done

M
And you echo countless Christians, and Kierkegaard, and all these other guys you've read. You think by being reckless and illogical you have somehow risen above being the dim echo of thinkers far greater than you'll ever be?

I am not reckless and I am not ikllogial, but when logic ends faith begins and I meditate on what I read not just echo it

M
At least by being logical and methodical I may be able to take a few steps forward, which is more than I can say about you. Because honestly, I don't think you walked in a circle. I think you didn't move a goddamn inch in your entire 45 years. You're still a stubborn Jew, still completely convinced that you're one of "God's chosen people", and still trapped doing pointless rituals, because the difficulty of forcing yourself into thinking stupid thoughts and acting in stupid ways gives your life meaning.

You take no steps forward, you are not even near the cliff edge and you are far from being logical/rational if the best you can do is insult another culture...However I agree that Jews are stubborn , but they too have God. I suppose I am a wandering Jew but think Jesus was God in man form..What sort of Jew does that make me? Well actually I choose to be myself, without religion.

dull/boring/useless

The maturity of a philosopher comes when he can read seemingly dull and boring things and find value in them. Most philosophers I've read bore the pants off the average person and their thoughts always seem useless to dumb broads; I'd gladly join the tradition of dry boring old men if it keeps bobble-headed chicks from fouling up my writing by reading anything I say.

I didnt say what you wrote was boring.Your objectivity crumbles, your accuracy fails.........you lost m8

[/quote]

E
You may reach the other side safely with all your planning and even think that you have conquered the danger

M
As to this "other side", I have no clue what you're talking about. I don't plan on going anywhere any time soon. I don't aimlessly hope to obtain some mystical state of enlightenment; I just solve problems when they present themselves and improve my skills. I'm more like a soccer player than a tight-rope walker. But let's say there is another side of some metaphoric cliff. I'm sure the only way to get there would be by knowing where it was, knowing where the tightrope is, practising tightrope walking on safer poles, and then, when ready, walking only as fast as you can confidently go. Putting on a blindfold and jumping is, I repeat, completely stupid.

Stupid for you yes, because you are nowhere near the cliff edge and just jumping up and down on the path , thinking you were leaping an abyss would be just about your limit .........to date, but I'm sure you will advance

emma · Post by **emma** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:10 am

Mooke

Your Truth lies in the reason why you have become so emotive to me instead of ignoring my posts. You know as I know as everyone who thinks knows, that you have a choice worldly matters of Faith . Those who are chained to the former hate the latter group, while the latter sometimes fail when they think how easy it would be to just live, think in numbers and insult Races./Religions/ etc
You are not conscious of your Self.....yet!

Trevor Salyzyn · Post by **Trevor Salyzyn** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:32 am

emma,

M: What are you doing in a philosophy forum? If this is your real attitude, go write poetry.

E: I do and I write books that nobody wishes to read...The path is lonely and hard as we have disussed in another post

So what are you doing in a philosophy forum? Are you lonely?

How do you measure thoughts with a ruler?

That is to say, quantitatively, with "logico-deductive" tools. I can combine two thoughts with a syllogism, or I can judge the validity of a train of thought by keeping every term in order. If you are having a hard time visualizing a severe train of thought, think of computer programming languages. Compared to a feel-good poem or carefree musings about God, a well-assembled program is as exact as a ruler.

I have my own ideas and have rejected much of what I have read.........I only quoted that which I hold dear. Your anger and your "insult" show you to be emotive, illogical and not fit to post on a forum which values these ideals ......Oops maybe neither of us belong here

There is no anger when I insult you. I'm doing it to prompt a particular reaction from you; sometimes the most effective way to see a person's belief about something is to jab them with a fork. They may resent you for it, but sometimes the goal of discourse isn't to make friends, but to help others see what they can't see on their own.

Your response to me is emotional and you have not produced a single convincing argument for someone you disagree with.

Ah, you just spoke my language! Fancy that.

Your comment about jews is a silly insult to jewish people but hey they are used to it

I know that, and knew that when I wrote it. I grew up in and live in a Jewish household, and am perceived by most of my acquaintances to be Jewish. I'm quite a stern atheist, though, and think Judaism is as backward a religion as any.

I am not reckless and I am not ikllogial, but when logic ends faith begins and I meditate on what I read not just echo it

Where logic ends, you let your unconscious mind deal with it.

You take no steps forward, you are not even near the cliff edge and you are far from being logical/rational if the best you can do is insult another culture

I'm mocking the culture I grew up with. It's quite rational and logical to point out flaws in ideologies that you are surrounded by.

Stupid for you yes, because you are nowhere near the cliff edge and just jumping up and down on the path , thinking you were leaping an abyss would be just about your limit .........to date, but I'm sure you will advance

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I don't think you have any idea where I stand philosophically or what my goals are; nor do I believe you stand farther down the path than me, so I don't think you are in any position to make any judgements about my vectors.

You admitted you went in a circle. I'm thinking that means you just spun around on one spot, felt dizzy, and toppled over.

Your Truth lies in the reason why you have become so emotive to me instead of ignoring my posts.

Ah, don't try to catch me in one of these nets. I'm not going to play one of those "I could ignore you if I wanted to" games. I rather enjoying picking on someone smaller than me.

Those who are chained to the former hate the latter group, while the latter sometimes fail when they think how easy it would be to just live, think in numbers and insult Races./Religions/ etc

No, my "group" doesn't hate your "group". My "group" doesn't live in "chains" because it doesn't agree with you. I think you've contracted a vicious case of us-or-them mentality. You should head down to the clinic and get yourself tested.

You are not conscious of your Self.....yet!

I call bullshit.

emma · Post by **emma** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:41 am

You have won and I have lost I will go and seek some guidance

emma · Post by **emma** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:48 am

..The rest I can let go but my ego couldn't resist this one

There is no anger when I insult you. I'm doing it to prompt a particular reaction from you; sometimes the most effective way to see a person's belief about something is to jab them with a fork. They may resent you for it, but sometimes the goal of discourse isn't to make friends, but to help others see what they can't see on their own.

Yes this is what I have been trying to do on this forum. My beliefs are not made up, but I learnt the philosophers response long ago when I crosssed swords with Victor Danilchenko

But I still want to know why rational thiunkers cant and wont just drop everything and jump. I have several times.

Kevin Solway · Post by **Kevin Solway** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:15 am

There is a saying, "Look before you leap".

That's where reason and consciousness comes in.

Natan · Post by **Natan** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:52 am

I think Emma has explained on another topic that reason etc can get you to the cliff edge but after that its leap or not

Elizabeth Isabelle · Post by **Elizabeth Isabelle** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:26 am

mooke:

I measure my thoughts with a ruler, not a gut feeling.

How many inches is your conciouslness?

Kevin Solway · Post by **Kevin Solway** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:42 pm

Natan wrote:I think Emma has explained on another topic that reason etc can get you to the cliff edge but after that its leap or not

Reason also tells you whether you should leap or not, and what to expect after you've leapt.

Emma is underestimating the power of reason.

Natan · Post by **Natan** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:04 pm

As per your other topic. K argued till it killed him. He was happy to go against reason (ie if I continue this way it will kill me ) to showe his Faith. He took the leap of Faith and his life is an example of this. he made it clear it wasnt what the Gospels taught that was important, it was the actual life of Jesus and he sacrificed his life in much the same way. That goes against all worldly reason/logic.

Kevin Solway · Post by **Kevin Solway** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:03 am

Please see my reply in the Kierkegaard thread.

Elizabeth Isabelle · Post by **Elizabeth Isabelle** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:31 am

I'd like to hear some opinions on comparitive terminology:
Is Jung's "The Collective Unconcious" the same thing as God as defined by those beliefs that do not consider God to be a separate entity?

Matt Gregory · Post by **Matt Gregory** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:17 am

Definitely not. You're stuck in the materialistic/scientific mindset if you're asking this question.

Gretchen · Post by **Gretchen** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:40 am

Kevin wrote:

Finite things are the body of the Infinite.

In the same way that you have hands and feet, God has finite things. And just as you are not apart from your hands and feet, God is not apart from finite things. And just as there is no you without your body parts, there is no God without finite things.

The Infinite is not finite, but all things finite are part of the Infinite. If there is no separation, then there is also no separation between that which is visible and that which is invisible. If we are only what we can sense, then we are finite and visibleâ€¦but yet we are part of the Infinite, therefore would it not follow that there exists that within us that would be Infinite and invisible to the senses?

David speaks of the Hidden Void. Obviously, as he says, it is something that cannot be contemplated or even queried, when he said:

It is wholly beyond the capacity of the mind to experience or grasp. We simply have to accept that it will always be a mystery which can never be solved.

And yet, he goes on to give an example of the mysterious cancer where an answer exists but we have not gained enough intellect to grasp the answer. Because our current doctors and scientists are enlightened more, cancer is recognizable as a form. Therefore, it can be diagnosed, excised and studied for its cause. What was cancer thousands of years ago, a curse from the gods? Man evolved and moved past that former hidden void.

Contrarily, what if the answer to the Hidden Void exists but we have not yet advanced to grasp it? What if it has form but, as those in millenniumâ€™s past, we chalked it up to something that cannot be explained and must be rendered accepted as is? I am crossing lines of science and spiritualism which may render my argument useless, but what if man just isnâ€™t quite enlightened enough to â€œseeâ€ what is before him in order to grasp it? If we give up on trying to access this Hidden Void, will we ever be capable of â€œseeingâ€ it?

Leyla Shen · Post by **Leyla Shen** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:57 am

passthrough wrote:

And yet, he goes on to give an example of the mysterious cancer where an answer exists but we have not gained enough intellect to grasp the answer. Because our current doctors and scientists are enlightened more, cancer is recognizable as a form. Therefore, it can be diagnosed, excised and studied for its cause. What was cancer thousands of years ago, a curse from the gods? Man evolved and moved past that former hidden void.

Interesting. Did the example of the mysterious cancer follow directly after this:

David, from Wisdom of the Infinite: It is wholly beyond the capacity of the mind to experience or grasp. We simply have to accept that it will always be a mystery which can never be solved.

?

~

The â€œmysteryâ€ of the hidden void and the ignorance in identifying and treating the symptom that is cancer are two utterly different things.

What do you think Matt meant by this:

EI: Is Jung's "The Collective Unconcious" the same thing as God as defined by those beliefs that do not consider God to be a separate entity?

Matt: Definitely not. You're stuck in the materialistic/scientific mindset if you're asking this question.

I agree there is something worthy of challenge here, though:

K: [Major premise:] And just as there is no you without your body parts, there is no God without finite things.

From another thread:

L: Now, this theory just so happens to rest on the assumptions that we do have arms and legs.

K: Not really. In its pure form, science asks questions like, "If we have arms and legs, how did we come to have them?"

Science can still be done perfectly well without assuming that we definitely have arms and legs. In its pure form, it deals only with what appears to us.

If there is no me without my body parts and there is no certainty that I actually have body parts, then there is no certainty that there is me and, equally, no certainty there is no God without finite things since they, too, must be just as uncertain as me and my body parts.

Right?

.

Gretchen · Post by **Gretchen** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:03 am

Leyla Shen wrote:passthrough wrote:

And yet, he goes on to give an example of the mysterious cancer where an answer exists but we have not gained enough intellect to grasp the answer. Because our current doctors and scientists are enlightened more, cancer is recognizable as a form. Therefore, it can be diagnosed, excised and studied for its cause. What was cancer thousands of years ago, a curse from the gods? Man evolved and moved past that former hidden void.
Interesting. Did the example of the mysterious cancer follow directly after this:

David, from Wisdom of the Infinite: It is wholly beyond the capacity of the mind to experience or grasp. We simply have to accept that it will always be a mystery which can never be solved.

No, but you are missing the point I was trying to make. David is making a statement that their exists this Hidden Void that is unquestionable and so must be accepted. Thousands of years ago people died for no reason that could be determined because medical technology was not to a point where they could acknowledge cancerous cells, so they chalked it up to a curse of the gods.

Men became enlightened. How? What caused man to suddenly start looking inside to find the cause of death? To experiment, cut out things, study them....all the way to today's revelation of DNA decoding?

As such, we have loads of unused gray matter in our brains that is capable of perhaps understanding a whole good deal more about how things work in this life. A sixth sense that is only science fiction at the present. Could this be a blinder to the Hidden Void, the thing that is keeping us from not being able to grasp the Unknowable?

Jesus Christ existed. If you believe what he did, he had this sixth sense. Pontius Pilate wrote a letter to Caesar explaining the situation:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0809.htm

I knew that I would cross a science line when I wrote this, but it is not what I was driving for. Think about this, release your mind from pure science and combine it with the Hidden Void. Science is a tool, not the answer. If we accept that there is a Hidden Void that created all things and is separate from the construction, and leave it there without another thought, dismissing it AS IF it didn't exist, it will never be manifested.

It must be thought about for the very reason that man became enlightened enough to discover cancer, DNA and every other thing that Exists...and not just scientifically either. It cannot be separate.

If there is no me without my body parts and there is no certainty that I actually have body parts, then there is no certainty that there is me and, equally, no certainty there is no God without finite things since they, too, must be just as uncertain as me and my body parts.

Right?

Well, I suppose you could say we are one big delusion, but Iâ€™m trying to figure out my own universe in order to live my lifeâ€¦not question its existence. I am allowing that one givenâ€¦to be given, itâ€™s the â€œthereforeâ€ I am trying to postulate. Make sense?

You said that this notion of delusion is more worthy of thought, I think it is easier to see and understand. The more of a challenge, however, is this:

Given that I exist, can the finite understand the Infinite? The Infinite is made up of finite things plus this Hidden Void that David speaks of. Some people in this world are interested in studying certain facets of our â€œfiniteâ€ world, such as scientists to find the answersâ€¦but is there a spiritual scientist who can study the Hidden Void? If we give up on trying to seek, knock and find, will we ever see and behold?

Carl G · Post by **Carl G** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:30 am

passthrough,

What is this Hidden Void you say David speaks of? Have you linked to that quote of his? What is the context for your reference, why do you bring it up? By Hidden Void do you mean that which is beyond the Totality, or in other words, no thing? If so, why are you concerned with "it"?

Gretchen · Post by **Gretchen** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:07 pm

Carl G wrote:passthrough,

What is this Hidden Void you say David speaks of? Have you linked to that quote of his? What is the context for your reference, why do you bring it up? By Hidden Void do you mean that which is beyond the Totality, or in other words, no thing? If so, why are you concerned with "it"?

It is in his book "Wisdom of the Infinite" but it does not matter now because in reading further he wrote something that I was seeking related to what you and I had discussed in the other thread. Although I read his book quite a while back, it just didn't sink in until now. I have experienced this scenario many times and now understand what he means by it.

When it comes to comprehending Reality, there is ultimately nothing to affirm or deny. To affirm something is to fall into the delusion that a particular appearance is ultimate reality; to deny a particular appearance is to fall into the delusion that Reality has a particular form. Thus, part of the process of becoming enlightened is learning how to put an end to this mentality of affirmation and denial, which means recognizing and accepting that Reality is essentially ungraspable. Reality is simply what it is in any given moment. It cannot be captured or got hold of in any way. The moment you try to do that, you lose it. All that you will be left with is a useless frozen image, a kind of mental corpse, completely oblivious to the fact that Reality has since moved on.

Interesting.

reedsch · Post by **reedsch** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:11 pm

Check out "The Spectrum of Consciousness" by Ken Wilber, which I believe is one of the seminal books on the subject...

on Amazon.com

millipodium · Post by **millipodium** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:14 pm

You guys are total idiots. Seriously. this discussion is totally pointless.