A MAN NEVER ARGUES WITH A BEAUTIFUL WOMAN - OH BUT I INSIST

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Nick wrote:
I agree with Kevin. I live in a very populated area with people from many different walks of life, and like Kevin said; "They (women) might repeat back to me what I'm saying, telling me how wise and lofty it is, but it doesn't even penetrate the outer layer of cells of their brain". Not to say this isn't the case with most men, but it is the case with all women.
Perhaps these pieces of insight will help:

1. Most people, even if they agree with an idea, may need to be reminded a thousand times in hundreds of ways before they incorporate it into their lives.

2. On most women's communication - If a woman states something that seems like she agrees with your idea then she promptly ignores it, sometimes this is the thought process (okay, different words) she has when the other person is speaking: "Oh my, what a borish individual pontificating in front of me. If I point out the flaws in his logic, he's likely to go on forever. What do I say to make this guy shut up so I can go talk to someone else?"
Pye
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Post by Pye »

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Kevin:
Saying that women are almost completely unconscious is a simple statement of fact, and not a denigration.
Given that consciousness/reason has historically been considered the hallmark of being human, you might reconsider what you've said. And in other of your comments, you still swing this quality back and forth from human attribute to gender attribute to suit your contextual needs, perhaps even moods of irrationality.

I once read some of your Cow Teh Ching, you know, and far from intelligence, I saw there a waste of intelligence expended in sophomoric humour re: women, about as enlightening and intelligent as a collegiate edition of Mad magazine. I know you have better things to do with your consciousness than this. Same with your Paglia page. It is as though you are masturbating something in your comments over and over, unconsciously this way and that. Well and truly I wish you some kind of future peace with it, Kevin, and some kind of future breakthrough where the state of your consciousness becomes as paramount as it should.

It is the same with every scenario I have seen put here by a man that assumes to speak what is going on in a woman's mind. The hubris, the absurdity, the illogic of assuming to know, the scenarios of emptiness, flightiness, the "she's-only-thinking-of's" etc. is utterly astounding - and obsessive. Instead of dismantling this obsession, you keep feeding it, from the ground up. Perhaps you look at women's actions and extrapolate from there, but this would be just as dense as me seeing you on a golf course and leaping to the conclusion that the last thing some golf-playing dude has on his mind is raising it.

To follow-up another comment of Leyla's elsewhere: look around you, Kevin. Has this little rhetorical device produced all the helpful understanding with which you credit it? Instead it is the stink in the room everyone must deal with or work around or has put to them; becomes a clearinghouse for every degree of misogyny and confusion; produced (in some) a boy's club of sophomoric, unconscious forms of "reason" and perhaps even swaggering forms of hubris that the possessor mistakes for personal safety from the problem. You tell a man he's already got a leg-up because he's a man, and thus he has carte blanche to bypass his own unconsciousness, and on top of this murky foundation, he builds his progress. No Kevin; it is not helpful. And as for useful, look at the ways in which it has been used.

If Faizi is to be believed (and I certainly believe her), it has been this way here for 9 years. I've dealt with it for all the frustrated potential I see possible at this forum, just as I deal with anything I see frustrating the potential of consciousness. I certainly don't have nine more years for this, so I say, do A=A.

If you want to speak of consciousness, say consciousness. If you want to speak of reason or unconsciousness or flightiness or strength, then use these words, define these words. I am completely convinced that all english-speaking humans will be able, or at least will endeavor to, understand you. I have a decade of field work of my own that attests to this.

[edit: spelling]

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Last edited by Pye on Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Pye wrote:
It is the same with every scenario I have seen put here by a man that assumes to speak what is going on in a women's mind.
One can not know what is going on in the mind of another without using good communicaton skills and asking. One example - I could not understand what would be pleasurable for a man to be on the receiving end of homosexual sex. I will never be a homosexual man, so I could not look into myself for the answer. I asked, and I found out that the rubbing of the prostate that occurs on the receiving end of male homosexual intercourse is a pleasurable sensation. I don't have a prostate, so I never would have guessed that without being told.

In David's article "Masculine and Feminine Psychology" David wrote:
By studying the "woman" inside of me, I can develop a good understanding of the essence all women.
Although homosexual men and heterosexual women have similarities, it would have been inane of me to think that I could have gotten the answer to my question by assuming that there was a part of me that was a homosexual man. I might then have assumed that any pleasure from anal sex for a homosexual man would be limited to the emotional pleasure of pleasing one's partner. I would never have guessed the answer I got from asking someone who would have a better idea of what homosexual men think - a homosexual man himself.

Pye wrote:
If you want to speak of consciousness, say consciousness. If you want to speak of reason or unconsciousness or flightiness or strength, then use these words
Agreed. A dictionary is a wonderful tool for good communication skills.
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Shardrol
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Post by Shardrol »

Nick wrote:
Shardrol wrote:So would you say then that all the women on the forum do not understand the writing of those on the forum whom you consider wise?
If by women you mean anatomical women, then no. If you mean people with a feminine mentality, then yes.
Oh no, you're not going to slither out of it by retroactively changing the meaning of what you said. If when you said 'women' what you really meant is 'feminine-minded people of any biological gender', then your statement would not have made any sense. Here is what you said:
Nick wrote:I agree with Kevin. I live in a very populated area with people from many different walks of life, and like Kevin said; "They (women) might repeat back to me what I'm saying, telling me how wise and lofty it is, but it doesn't even penetrate the outer layer of cells of their brain". Not to say this isn't the case with most men, but it is the case with all women.
Kevin was clearly talking about biological men & women, as were you, or it would have made no sense to say 'most men' & 'all women'.

Now you say that all you meant was that the feminine-minded are always feminine-minded. So are we to believe that what you meant by 'men' is 'masculine-minded'? Then how could it be that 'most men' react the same as 'all women'? Would you have us believe that what you really meant was that most masculine-minded people [men] behave the same as all feminine-minded people [women]? Are you following this?

It's because of disingenuousness & confusion of this nature that I object to using the word 'women' to mean 'feminine-minded' & using the term 'feminine-minded' to mean 'unconscious'. Not only does it cause confusion for people who are attempting to communicate while not sharing the same definitions of these words, it makes it possible for people to make ridiculous statements about 'all women' & then weasel out of them when challenged by saying what they really meant was just 'the feminine-minded of whatever gender'.

All this could be avoided if people said 'women' when they meant biological women & 'unconscious' when they meant those of whatever gender whom the speaker believed to be unconscious.

This would be an example of logic.
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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Shardrol wrote:
All this could be avoided if people said 'women' when they meant biological women & 'unconscious' when they meant those of whatever gender whom the speaker believed to be unconscious.

This would be an example of logic.
I like logic; this makes sense.
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Shardrol
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Re: Bitches 2

Post by Shardrol »

Kevin Solway wrote:When I said "any woman" I was slightly exaggerating.
Yes of course, that's what David said when I made the same point to him a few years ago. You like to make these sweeping statements for dramatic effect & then if someone objects, you say, oh well it was a bit of an exaggeration.

I think it's dishonest.
But the number of deep-thinking women I have even heard of is still virtually nil. And I've spent countless hours scouring the literature for them, and asking people if they can direct me towards a deep-thinking female, just to satisfy my curiosity.

And even those women who are deep thinking, are not overly astonishing.
Oh okay, so what you really meant was that you haven't come across many deep-thinking women at all, in spite of having searched, & the ones you have found have not been overly astonishing. That's a bit of a far cry from what you actually said, isn't it?
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Nick
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Post by Nick »

Shardrol wrote:Oh no, you're not going to slither out of it by retroactively changing the meaning of what you said. If when you said 'women' what you really meant is 'feminine-minded people of any biological gender', then your statement would not have made any sense. Here is what you said:
There is no slithering on my part, I'll face whatever type of alleged dirt you think you have on me and show you where you are wrong. Women are more feminine the men, and less likely to attain consciousness, bottom-line.
Shardrol wrote:Kevin was clearly talking about biological men & women, as were you, or it would have made no sense to say 'most men' & 'all women'. Now you say that all you meant was that the feminine-minded are always feminine-minded. So are we to believe that what you meant by 'men' is 'masculine-minded'? Then how could it be that 'most men' react the same as 'all women'? Would you have us believe that what you really meant was that most masculine-minded people [men] behave the same as all feminine-minded people [women]? Are you following this?
Men and women act the same way most of the time because women don't have a conscience, and men don't use theres. Although there is a fundamental difference, you end up getting the same effect in most instances with either sex.
Shardrol wrote:It's because of disingenuousness & confusion of this nature that I object to using the word 'women' to mean 'feminine-minded' & using the term 'feminine-minded' to mean 'unconscious'. Not only does it cause confusion for people who are attempting to communicate while not sharing the same definitions of these words, it makes it possible for people to make ridiculous statements about 'all women' & then weasel out of them when challenged by saying what they really meant was just 'the feminine-minded of whatever gender'.

All this could be avoided if people said 'women' when they meant biological women & 'unconscious' when they meant those of whatever gender whom the speaker believed to be unconscious.

This would be an example of logic.
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It really gets boring having to explain this concept over and over again. It's not at all confusing, unless you are offended which inhibits your ability to approach the concept with the proper state of mind. What it comes down is that I don't give a shit if I offend someone or their beliefs. It's their own ego they need to get over if thats the case. If you put a little extra thought into it with an open mind you will realize they are generalizations that are very effective in getting a person's gears to start turning for the first time. Not to mention that I believe these generalizations are 99+% accurate. I am not even the least bit being dishonest.
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

Pye wrote:
I once read some of your Cow Teh Ching, you know, and far from intelligence, I saw there a waste of intelligence expended in sophomoric humour re: women, about as enlightening and intelligent as a collegiate edition of Mad magazine.
It's humour for young people, as opposed to crinkly old-fuddy-duddies. I personally find The Cow Te Ching extremely funny, and very deep too. It's for people who are young, wild and free, who love plunging deeply into things and don't give a toss whose toes they step on.

It is the same with every scenario I have seen put here by a man that assumes to speak what is going on in a woman's mind. The hubris, the absurdity, the illogic of assuming to know, the scenarios of emptiness, flightiness, the "she's-only-thinking-of's" etc. is utterly astounding - and obsessive. Instead of dismantling this obsession, you keep feeding it, from the ground up. Perhaps you look at women's actions and extrapolate from there, but this would be just as dense as me seeing you on a golf course and leaping to the conclusion that the last thing some golf-playing dude has on his mind is raising it.

The bottom line is, though, that women need to put the runs on the board and actually start displaying rationality in their lives and successfuly achieve things in the realm of genius. Simply pretending that women can do these things, despite the evidence to the contrary, doesn't do anyone any good. It doesn't do women a service. It doesn't do the truth a service.

To follow-up another comment of Leyla's elsewhere: look around you, Kevin. Has this little rhetorical device produced all the helpful understanding with which you credit it? Instead it is the stink in the room everyone must deal with or work around or has put to them;

From my perspective, this forum challenges all attachments without fear or favour, including the extremely large attachment that people have to women/femininity. But at the moment, most people don't want know about it. For them, the realm of women/femininity is equivalent to life itself. And so this, in my opinion, is the "stink" you are perceiving - the stink of upset egos.

If Faizi is to be believed (and I certainly believe her), it has been this way here for 9 years. I've dealt with it for all the frustrated potential I see possible at this forum, just as I deal with anything I see frustrating the potential of consciousness. I certainly don't have nine more years for this, so I say, do A=A.
Well, I, for one, hope that the discourse in this place never gets watered down into the evasive mish-mash which passes for spiritual discussion in the world today. I like the way this place focuses on women/femininity. It really tests people love of truth. It so effectively separates the men from the boys, the genuine lovers of truth from the flakes. Who cares if the old fuddy-duddies hate it?

I will know this place has lost its soul if it ever backs down from this.

If you want to speak of consciousness, say consciousness. If you want to speak of reason or unconsciousness or flightiness or strength, then use these words, define these words. I am completely convinced that all english-speaking humans will be able, or at least will endeavor to, understand you. I have a decade of field work of my own that attests to this.
The trouble is, the word "unconsciousness" is too easily absorbed and neutered by the great Feminine Tide which currently rules the world. This Tide will absorb everything into its evasive hodge-podge of mish-mash unless you actively fight against it.

The only way to stop being absorbed and overwhelemed up by the great Feminine Tide is by tackling it head on, and that means using the kind of language which those who happily swim along in the Feminine Tide hate.

It's a very stark choice. You either directly challenge the Feminine Tide head on and preserve your individuality and soul, or else you get swept up by it and become obliterated.

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Pye
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Post by Pye »

.

David writes:
I will know this place has lost its soul if it ever backs down from this.
Sad news then, David, that transcendence will have to back down instead.

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Leyla Shen
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Post by Leyla Shen »

Well, I must say, I have never seen enlightenment reduced down to salvaging emotional, pubescent males with such eloquency.

Good show, ol' chap!

[hobbles out on her walking stick, cackling…]

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Steven Coyle

Post by Steven Coyle »

David,

You have to admit, that you aren't giving potential female truth seekers much of a chance, with a direct assault to their ego, before its been built-up.
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

Steven wrote:
You have to admit, that you aren't giving potential female truth seekers much of a chance, with a direct assault to their ego, before its been built-up.
Females with genuine potential for wisdom wouldn't have a problem with what I am saying. They would already be thoroughly disgusted and repulsed by feminine behaviour and would clearly see the need to speak against it.

It is impossible to make a bid for genius and not be repulsed by the feminine. The two necessarily go together.



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Pye wrote:
Sad news then, David, that transcendence will have to back down instead.
If your transcendence doesn't involve addressing the deeper attachments of the ego, then it is a fake transcendence.

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Steven Coyle

Post by Steven Coyle »

Steven: You have to admit, that you aren't giving potential female truth seekers much of a chance, with a direct assault to their ego, before its been built-up.

David: Females with genuine potential for wisdom wouldn't have a problem with what I am saying. They would already be thoroughly disgusted and repulsed by feminine behaviour and would clearly see the need to speak against it.

It is impossible to make a bid for genius and not be repulsed by the feminine. The two necessarily go together.
But, if you were truly concerned with enlightening as many as possible, wouldn't you also consider the ego of as many as possible?

(Without compromising your own, of course.)
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Shardrol
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Post by Shardrol »

Nick wrote:There is no slithering on my part, I'll face whatever type of alleged dirt you think you have on me and show you where you are wrong. Women are more feminine the men, and less likely to attain consciousness, bottom-line.
I wasn't actually arguing against this, if you'll pay closer attention to what I said. I was disputing the fact that you claimed you meant 'feminine-minded people of either gender' when you said 'women' in a particular instance.
Nick wrote:
Shardrol wrote:Are you following this?
Men and women act the same way most of the time because women don't have a conscience, and men don't use theres. Although there is a fundamental difference, you end up getting the same effect in most instances with either sex.
I see you were not, in fact, following it because your answer is irrelevant to the point I made.
Nick wrote:It really gets boring having to explain this concept over and over again.
No need really. I've been reading this forum since before you were born & I have no trouble stating the point you are now trying to make: that women as a rule are less conscious than men, which puts them at a disadvantage in understanding reality (enlightenment).

Now, can you state my point?
Nick wrote:What it comes down is that I don't give a shit if I offend someone or their beliefs. It's their own ego they need to get over if thats the case.
Actually the only thing about me you have offended is my preference for rational dialogue.
Nick wrote:I believe these generalizations are 99+% accurate. I am not even the least bit being dishonest.
I agree that you undoubtedly believe what you believe.
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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

David wrote:
The bottom line is, though, that women need to put the runs on the board and actually start displaying rationality in their lives and successfuly achieve things in the realm of genius.
This is coming from a guy who has successfully achieved existance off of government handouts to spend his life bashing women for non-achievements.
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Nick
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Post by Nick »

Shardrol,

You are nit-picking in vain. If anyone wants to give an honest effort into understanding the differences between feminine and masculine psychology they could do it. It's not that hard or confusing to understand, nor is the way I speak about it. If anyone has a hard time understanding it, it's simply their biased state of mind that keeps them in the dark. If you understand it so well, then why not give your own clarification (in case anyone is getting confused) rather than nit-pick at my posts. The thing is, I think you realize noone needs your help to understand what I or Kevin, has said, if they contemplate it with an open mind. It's pretty obvious you are offended by what I have said, but too cowardly to be forward enough about it.
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

Elizabeth wrote:
DQ: The bottom line is, though, that women need to put the runs on the board and actually start displaying rationality in their lives and successfuly achieve things in the realm of genius.

EI: This is coming from a guy who has successfully achieved existance off of government handouts to spend his life bashing women for non-achievements.
Well, they do say that the philosopher's life is one of comedy and paradox!

Are you asserting that achievement should only be recognized within the economic realm?

Celia Green, God bless her, had an entirely different view:

Earning a living is regarded as moral. This is because a person who is answerable only to himself may or may not be wasting his time; an employed person is certain to be.

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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

Steven Coyle wrote:
Steven: You have to admit, that you aren't giving potential female truth seekers much of a chance, with a direct assault to their ego, before its been built-up.

David: Females with genuine potential for wisdom wouldn't have a problem with what I am saying. They would already be thoroughly disgusted and repulsed by feminine behaviour and would clearly see the need to speak against it.

It is impossible to make a bid for genius and not be repulsed by the feminine. The two necessarily go together.

Steven: But, if you were truly concerned with enlightening as many as possible, wouldn't you also consider the ego of as many as possible?

(Without compromising your own, of course.)

I think it is unrealistic to try and enlighten any more than a handful of people. Let's face it, the world is a zillion miles away from comprehending reality and becoming enlightened; most people are entirely tone deaf to the music of Truth. So I prefer to concentrate on the rare few who genuinely have potential. If we can get a handful of people up and running, then perhaps some momentum can be generated and wisdom will then have a chance to ripple out more widely.

It's a bit like trying to light a fire. If you concentrate on getting a good strong flame going in one spot, then maybe it will begin to spread and eventually flare up into a major bushfire.

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Post by s_e »

This is coming from a guy who has successfully achieved existance off of government handouts to spend his life bashing women for non-achievements.

Really? So... the guy can't have a successful relationship with a woman, he can't hold down a job... It's all starting to add up as a rather sad tale of woe, isn't it?

It's understandable then that his own ego-driven needs would compensate by fabricating an elaborate tale of sageful enlightenment and doing what he can to bring in others around him who will reinforce and strengthen that delusion, i.e., someone like Sue Hindmarsh who by her own admission has always had a "masculine" mind and no doubt, has felt the sting of being different. Sue is praised for reflecting David's "teachings" while someone like Pye, who is clearly, an exeedingly intelligent and rational woman who likely presents a personal threat on multiple levels, is ridiculed.

The ego is fascinating in its bends and twists to seek personal gratification, no?
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Post by s_e »

I think it is unrealistic to try and enlighten any more than a handful of people.

Oh, so do I. That ability does not belong to you, it belongs to something far beyond you.
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Post by Kevin Solway »

s_e wrote:Really? So... the guy can't have a successful relationship with a woman, he can't hold down a job... It's all starting to add up as a rather sad tale of woe, isn't it?


So your measure of success is being in a relationship with women and having a job. Is that right?

David: I think it is unrealistic to try and enlighten any more than a handful of people.


Oh, so do I. That ability does not belong to you, it belongs to something far beyond you.
What makes you think that you are qualified to make such judgements?
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Post by s_e »

Kevin, stop behaving like David's mommy. If he is as enlightened as he proclaims himself to be and I am as inferior as he insists all women are, he does not need you to come running in here to rescue him from the big bad lady.
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Post by Kevin Solway »

s_e wrote:Kevin, stop behaving like David's mommy. If he is as enlightened as he proclaims himself to be and I am as inferior as he insists all women are, he does not need you to come running in here to rescue him from the big bad lady.
I don't care about David.

If you want to have a personal discussion with David then you could either write to him personally, or ask for a special thread to be set up just for the two of you.

I would still like an answer to my questions.
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Post by s_e »

David: David: Females with genuine potential for wisdom wouldn't have a problem with what I am saying. They would already be thoroughly disgusted and repulsed by feminine behaviour and would clearly see the need to speak against it.

Women scare you. Your own petulance, your own weakness, your own inability to be anything more than a child sucking the teat of society because you are incapable of living up to the standards of essential adulthood (never mind manhood) is what scares you the most. Hence, your hatred, your revulsion, your projection, your complete lack of courage...

The "David Quinn" you present as an enlightened sage is nothing but a fraudulent mask and behind it stands a very weak, very frightened, little, tiny man who doesn't have the balls to face up to his own personal inadequacies.

I don't need to be "enlightened" to see this. I only need to possess a handful of common sense. A child could see through this game of smoke and mirrors.
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Post by Kevin Solway »

s_e wrote:I don't need to be "enlightened" to see this. I only need to possess a handful of common sense.
It sounds a lot like you are just fishing.

You are hoping there is a major flaw with David's argument, but you don't know what it is, so you are throwing mud indiscriminately in the hope that some will stick.
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