Help Me Please to Understand This

[emma]

Many thanks to DQ for renewing my interests in Kierkegaard. I am reading Provocations and came across this . I think I know what is meant but I'm not a genius so please can someone shed light on this please....and no "GOD doesnt exist stuff" I know its moot.

To Need God Is Perfection
With respect to physical existence, one needs little,
and to the degree that one needs less, the more perfect one is. In
a human being’s relationship with God, however, it is inverted:
the more one needs God the more perfect he is. To need God is
nothing to be ashamed of but is perfection itself. It is the saddest
thing in the world if a human being goes through life without
discovering that he needs God!
For what is a human being after all? Is he just one more ornament
in the vast array of creation? And what is his power? What
is the highest he is able to will? Well, we do not want to defraud
the highest of its price, but we cannot conceal the fact that the
highest is realized only when a person is fully convinced that he
himself is capable of nothing, nothing at all. What rare dominion
– not rare in the sense that only one individual is born to be
king, since everyone is born to it! What rare wisdom – not rare
because it is offered to just a few who are educated, but because
it is offered to all, and accessible to all! True, if a person turns
outward, it will probably seem as if he were capable of accomplishing
something amazing, something that satisfies him,
something that draws enthusiastic admiration. From a human
perspective, humankind may well be the most glorious creation,
but all its glory is still only in the external and for the external.
Does not the eye aim its arrow outward every time
passion and desire tighten the bowstring? Does not the hand
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8 To Need God Is Perfection
grasp outward, is not his arm outstretched, and is not his ingenuity
all-conquering? Deception!
A human being is great and at his highest only when before
God he recognizes that he is nothing in himself. Consider
Moses or the so-called works of Moses. What is the deed of even
the greatest hero; what are demolishing mountains and filling
rivers compared with having darkness fall upon all Egypt! But
these were not really Moses’ works. Moses was capable of nothing
at all, for the work was the Lord’s. Do you see the difference?
Moses – he did not make decisions and formulate plans while
the council of the common sense listened attentively – Moses
was capable of nothing at all. If the people had said to him, “Go
to Pharaoh, because your word is powerful, your voice is triumphant,
your eloquence irresistible,” he would have answered,
“Oh, you fools! I am capable of nothing, not even of giving my
life for you if the Lord does not so will. I am capable only of
submitting everything to the Lord.” Or if the people who
thirsted in the desert had appealed to Moses, saying, “Take your
staff and order the rock to give water,” would not Moses have
answered, “What is my staff but a stick?”
A person who knows himself perceives that he, in and of
himself, is actually capable of nothing. The same applies to the
internal world. Are any of us capable of anything there, either?
If a capability is actually to be a capability, it must have some kind
of opposition. Without opposition, one is either all-powerful or
one’s capability is something entirely imaginary. In the internal
world of spirit, opposition can come only from within. In this
way, we struggle with ourselves. If a person does not discover
this conflict, his understanding is faulty and consequently his
life is imperfect; but if he does discover it, he will understand
that he himself is capable of nothing at all.
Such self-knowledge we are referring to is really not complicated.
But is one not able, then, to overcome oneself by oneself?
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p r o v o c a t i o n s
How can I be stronger than myself? When we speak of overcoming
oneself by oneself, we really mean something external,
so that the struggle is unequal. Take, for example, someone who
has been tempted by worldly prestige but who conquers himself
so that he no longer reaches out for it. If he is to guard his soul
against a new vanity, he will have to admit that he is not really
able to overcome himself. He understands that with will power
alone he creates in his innermost being temptations of glory,
fear, despondency, of pride and defiance, and sensuality greater
than those he meets in the external world. For this reason he
struggles with himself. Victory proves nothing with regard to
this greater temptation. If he is victorious in facing the temptation
with which the surrounding world confronts him, this
does not prove that he would be victorious if the temptation
were as terrible as he is able to imagine it. He knows deep
within himself that he is capable of nothing at all.
In one sense, to need God and to know that this is a human
being’s highest perfection, makes life more difficult. However,
insofar as a person does not know himself, he does not actually
become conscious in the deeper sense that God is. The person
who realizes that he is capable of nothing cannot undertake the
slightest thing without God’s help, without becoming conscious
that God is. We sometimes speak of learning to know God from
the events of past history. We open up the chronicles and read
and read. Well, that may be fine, but how much time it takes,
and how dubious the outcome frequently is! But someone who
is conscious that he is capable of nothing has every day and every
moment the precious opportunity to experience that God
lives. If he does not experience it often enough, he knows very
well why that is. It is because his understanding is faulty and he
believes that he himself is, after all, capable of something.
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[Elizabeth Isabelle]

The author seems to think that God and humans are separate. It looks like he also thinks that humans are chips of refuse compared to God, and the only way they can make themselves worthwhile is to admit their lowly nature and reach out to this all-powerful separate being who can transform them into something worthwhile.

I don't believe that. Hang on before you think I'm disregarding your request; I just see God differently from how most people do. I believe that each one of us is like a cell of a greater body, and that greater body is God.

[Kevin Solway]

the more one needs God the more perfect he is.

The more you feel the requirement to align your life with truth, the more perfect you are.

A human being is great and at his highest only when before God he recognizes that he is nothing in himself.

There is no inherently existing self. Everything comes from Nature, from cause and effect.

However, insofar as a person does not know himself, he does not actually become conscious in the deeper sense that God is.

A person must be properly conscious to know that he is living in ignorance - apart from truth.

[Matt Gregory]

in the deeper sense that God is.

Why does he say this? What is "God"?

[Kevin Solway]

However, insofar as a person does not know himself, he does not actually become conscious in the deeper sense that God is.

Why does he say this? What is "God"?

God is Reality. The Infinite. Once you know yourself, you know God.

[Matt Gregory]

I just don't see how you could get that from those words. To me it's implying that God is totally different from the person, like Elizabeth was saying.

[Kevin Solway]

He talks about God in the traditional Christian sense. It's all a matter of interpretation.

Jesus used to talk about his "Father", but this doesn't mean he was talking about a different person.

For example, we talk about "Mother Nature" as though it were something separate to ourselves, but it isn't.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

He talks about God in the traditional Christian sense. It's all a matter of interpretation.

Jesus used to talk about his "Father", but this doesn't mean he was talking about a different person.

I agree. I also believe that traditional Christian teachings are significantly different from what Jesus taught. Jesus was much more intelligent than the church leaders who misinterpreted much of what Jesus said, then they declared themselves authorities on Jesus' teachings, and the masses believed them. There must have been enough people who thought for themselves to cause the authority figures to feel threatened because the church started teaching people to not question "the Word of God" - which was merely their interpretation. Anyway, due to the power trip that these men went on, the teachings got perverted. Come to think of it, so did a bunch of priests...

So what happened was a really bright guy saw a bunch of truth, tried to teach it to less intelligent beings using a language that wasn't very developed yet (yes, language evolved - look for yourself), and people played "telephone" with it for a bunch of generations.

That's why it's time to start over. I don't mean start from scratch - even Jesus didn't do that. Take the correct insights from that and many other religions (more accuratly, the philosophies behind those religions), add it to correct aspects of philosophies that did not turn into religions, and teach that to people. Enough people recognize wisdom when they see it to make a difference in the world.

[emma]

Thanks for the insights.very helpful.

And K's insights are absolutely frightening and mind-blowing
not for all those that do not have the courage to admit that they are too frightened to believe there is a God and prefer some wishy-washy excuse instead, but they are most frightening to those who do believe in God.......like me.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

emma, what do you believe that God is?

[emma]

I believe is the Ultimate Benign, the one. Few measure up to serving God and I know it is my life's work, but not through religion. I knew this when I was 13 and I know it now.

There is no true enlightenment unless it is complete and total love of God before all things . God watches us but does not intervene, it is up to us to make our way to God We have many The Buddha, Lao-tse, string theory, Logic, Sex, Possessions, even Love, but one can only know true Love when one knows God.Sorry for the emtion

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

No apology is needed for this.

I'm still unclear about your perception. Do you beleive God is a separate entity? a force intertwined with us? part of us as we are part of Him as a force? as a non-force? a Concept such as the distillation of all truth currently known as well as that which is not yet known as well as what has been forgotten?

Please explain your concept of God to me so that I might understand your perception.

[ashton]

Please explain your concept of God to me so that I might understand your perception.

AAAARRGGHH!! dont do it!!

[emma]

God is as a loving Father with wayward children. All things are possible to God ....For us to love God it has to be our choice.To be made to love something is not Love

Ashton is right in a way .God is a subjective thing.This is my God not necessarily yours or his.

[Kevin Solway]

God is as a loving Father with wayward children.

You haven't explained what you think God is.

Is it the Totality all things? Or is he a powerful alien of some kind?

[emma]

KS Solway wrote

You haven't explained what you think God is.

Is it the Totality all things? Or is he a powerful alien of some kind?

God cannot really be explained with our limits but this is what I believe

To know God is to be tested and studied by God Life becomes harder! easier to follow the peasant-controlling mind numbing concept of the Tao

God is something that we can only connect to with passion.

God can make all things happen but if God were to make us love Him ..that would be unsatisfactory all round, we have freewill.

God is the creator of all things the 1
God can only be viewed subjectively with mind heart and passion and objective thinking about God does not find God (doesnt stop me trying tho) We can truly only find God when we realise we are nothing

Not just an alien being, the Totality of all things and more ie Infinity

Omnipotent, Omnipresent and omni everything

It takes supreme courage to be with God and God tests us to our individuakl courage limits .

Everything thatis wayward is the creation of human. God knows we do this but we have freewill God doesnt bother to listen to those who are wayward untill they repent.

Kierkegaard tals of a Christian God, that is just one facet of God. Christ was but one manifessation of God.but its not Christs teachings that are important it is his life that requires thought.......an example to us all Kierkegaards life was similar.

God will test us. If you do not live a life devoted to God you will not know God.

This is a world of illusion as Ashton said somewhwre elase (Ha ha ha) The only time we are truly alive is when we find God.


To love God in the hope of gain, power, is a Sin. To doubt God means you are without God. To love God means facing a life of ridicule at the hands of mankind but so what?

The reward is to know God

It takes Truth, inner searching, compassion and the rest to know God

All that is Bernign comes from God and God is all that is Benign. The crap is down to us in ways we are only just realising

If you preach about God to others for any other reason save to glorify God you are not with God, you are without

Sorry to bang on !

[Kevin Solway]

God is the creator of all things

"All things" (the Totality) includes everything. There is no room left over for a creator. For that reason the Totality cannot be created.

However, you could think of the Totality as being the creator of all individual things.

the Totality of all things and more ie Infinity

There can't be "more" than the Totality, since it includes everything. Any "more" that you can think of is included in the Totality by definition.

[emma]

Basic Logic eh? What if God stands outside your Logic, what if you are only defining what your limits of thinking are?. You cannot define God with reason, it is beyond you, it is wrong to do so . besides which it is a red herring . The only way to understand the Totality thing is to ask God as logically only He has the answer. God would want to know why you want to know.either for vanity/the hero worship or because you doubt God...............Either way you won't get an answer.
Who am I to answer you

Instead of concentrating on this type of elemental proof consider what the world would be like if we returned to God, did away with silly morals/ethics/right and wrongs. destroyed religious bias...........and removed social barriers based on human prejudices. I have tried to get this forum to discuss these issues but all I get is "Battlergound God"

You are not interested in what I believe in you are only interested in diggting a trap for me to fall into, which I have gladly done so

Here's one for you

What would it take for you to accept that God exists, not as some "we are all atoms linked theory" which is useless but rather as GOD is all atoms theory which is constructive, leading us to what is all-powerful. Please re-read my beliefs and see past your crude logic and see what it is I am talking about
BTW God is not ethics and morals so for example a gay person can be with God as much as a hetro, a repentant pedophile as much as a long suffering mother

[Kevin Solway]

Basic Logic eh? What if God stands outside your Logic

If there were anything outside of my logic, that too would be included in the Totality, since the Totality includes everything, by definition.

what if you are only defining what your limits of thinking are?

The Totality, as defined, is unlimited. As shown, it is not even limited by logic.

You cannot define God with reason, it is beyond you.

Speak for yourself. It's not beyond me.

What would it take for you to accept that God exists

Since you won't define what you mean by "God", I have no idea what you are talking about.

[emma]

emma wrote:
Basic Logic eh? What if God stands outside your Logic

Ksolway wrote
If there were anything outside of my logic, that too would be included in the Totality, since the Totality includes everything, by definition.

You've gone off on a tangent here . I am saying your Logic does not lead you to God. You are saying ???????

Emma
what if you are only defining what your limits of thinking are?

KS
The Totality, as defined, is unlimited. As shown, it is not even limited by logic.

The totality is unlimited .your thinking is limited....yes we agree

Emma
You cannot define God with reason, it is beyond you.

KS
Speak for yourself. It's not beyond me.

Ok its certainly beyond me

Emma
What would it take for you to accept that God exists

KS
Since you won't define what you mean by "God", I have no idea what you are talking about.

I have already stated we cannot define God in Logic terms. I have not been banging on.I have given you what God is and what God is not (see above)
Draw your own conclusions

BTW as God is not beyond you.please define God for me

[Kevin Solway]

as God is not beyond you.please define God for me

I define God to be the Totality, the Infinite, the All.

[emma]

so we agree.
Don't get distracted by dead birds.These are the words of man. Study the life of jesus, not the teachings.Avoid the red herrings of the da vinci code type of stuff and focus just on Jesus life ........Don't think.............feeeeeeeeeelllll

Read the story of Abraham The Jews were exact scribes, discussing every letter, debating every meaning for the past 5000 years (their years) read about Abraham and Isaac and you will get a bit closer.Consider that both jews and Arabs exalt Abraham and you will see the example of God turn into human excrement yet again

[emma]

On another post KS stated

The single-mindedness comes into play by his first seeking the Kingdom of God (enlightenment) and secondly by his never departing the Kingdom of God.

What the sage does with his time should be of no concern to you. Only seek first the Kingdom of God.

That is the meaning of the following teaching:

"Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? (Matthew 6:26 NIV)"

Birds of course regularly starve to death. The point is, whether a sage does many things or few, whether he is rich or poor, thin or fat, healthy or unhealthy, none of these things should be of a concern to you, since becoming enlightened and aligning your life with Truth is all that should matter.

Funny that the next verse states " "which of you by taking thought can add one cubit to his stature "
KS contadicts himself by first praising jesus words, true indeed and then implying that God lets birds starve

Jesus was God on this Earth .forget the prattle of men such as Matthew . KS see the light of Jesus's life not the teaching of inferiors

Don't you see Mel Gibson/The Book of Judas/The resurrection.all man-made rubbish dragging you away from what is GOD
jesus is the Ultimate Paradox.believing that jesus was God in human form the ultimate act of Faith and it is faith not Logic, not thoughts that bring you to God

[emma]

I suppose the ukltimate definition of GOD is the Ultimate Unknown