When you watch a grief-stricken person, what do you see? You see a person who is nasty, angry, violent, narcissistic, emotional, black-minded, irrational, thoroughly absorbed in their own petty dramas, unempathetic and condescending towards other people's concerns. In other words, the very worst of all human traits.
And yet society teaches us that we should respect these people and tip-toe around them, even to the point of subjugating our own desires and values in the process. Can the priorities of the human race be any more askew? Can there be any greater proof that society is thoroughly evil?
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Grieving people are the ugliest people
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David Quinn
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suergaz
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Is it possible that intense grief (like any trauma) can open up doors to deeper buried twists, some of the darker dungeons and dragons of a human mind? Some people can even transform after such period, others manage to close and bolt all the doors again and move on almost unchanged.
Society expects us to tip-toe around anything that doesn't possess the proper varnish, I suppose.
Society expects us to tip-toe around anything that doesn't possess the proper varnish, I suppose.
If the Totality is sort of like a Gigantic Sequencing Mechanical Program which produces effects logically from prior causes....effects that lack inherent existance because they change over time...When you watch a grief-stricken person, what do you see? You see a person who is nasty, angry, violent, narcissistic, emotional, black-minded, irrational, thoroughly absorbed in their own petty dramas, unempathetic and condescending towards other people's concerns. In other words, the very worst of all human traits.
And yet society teaches us that we should respect these people and tip-toe around them, even to the point of subjugating our own desires and values in the process. Can the priorities of the human race be any more askew? Can there be any greater proof that society is thoroughly evil?
...and if David observes an effect: grieving people...isn't it enough to leave it that?
For David to go on and ascribe another meaning to it: ugly...
Doesn't that lead directly to a Judgement about the Forms the Totality produces...
That the Totality should not be producing effects like 'grieving people'...
If so, is this not rebellion?
If so, which effects should the Totality be producing?
Is Genius basically a bitch and moan session about certain effects produced by the Totality...
Beginner's Mind realises it's Perfect...Nothin' to Fix...
Does QRS stand for:
Quixotically Resisting Samsara...hehe
frank
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Trevor Salyzyn
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frank, since you are behaving like such a weasel, I'll be direct. Your comments have stopped having any relevance to the discussion: I have seen you say the exact same gut-wrenchingly boring, insincere drivel in response to nearly every one of David's insights. You don't understand the metaphysical notions you are using, and you are using them in the wrong places (in this context, an ethical discussion). That you do all this while pretending your amateur attempts at loftiness are funny just makes reading your posts all the more tedious. To be blunt, you read like you are making a long list of nearly identical parodies of the exact same old joke. After the first two courtesy laughs, your audience is bored.
Why don't you give it a rest and try giving David an honest, sincere, answer to his question? If you don't believe there's a moral issue surrounding grief, then give a reason why not. I'm sure you can imagine something that ends on a more serious note than "hehe", and doesn't require you to use stale jokes and a half-understood metaphysic.
Why don't you give it a rest and try giving David an honest, sincere, answer to his question? If you don't believe there's a moral issue surrounding grief, then give a reason why not. I'm sure you can imagine something that ends on a more serious note than "hehe", and doesn't require you to use stale jokes and a half-understood metaphysic.
The Death of Socrates (1787)
Jacques-Louis David (French, 1748-1825)
Oil on canvas
David shows him calmly discoursing on the immortality of the soul with his grief-stricken disciples.
http://radicalacademy.com/philosophyart1.htm
Jacques-Louis David (French, 1748-1825)
Oil on canvas
David shows him calmly discoursing on the immortality of the soul with his grief-stricken disciples.
http://radicalacademy.com/philosophyart1.htm
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Ryan Rudolph
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To the wise man sorrow is a gift from heaven, a teacher.
To the ignorant man sorrow is a constant reminder of his own stupidity.
And to observe the stupidity of an ignorant man, one feels his tragedy because his tragedy is your tragedy. What makes the stupid mans predicament so unfortunate is that he doesn’t have what it takes to actually change.
He appears permanently stunted. Even wise men are stunted in certain ways.
I don’t claim to be perfect, I don’t claim to be free from sorrow. So we are all in this sorrow-boat together.
And why I pity the stupid man is because he blindly falls on his face over and over and is unable to pick himself back up.
he is truly caught in hell.
Surely no matter how stupid the man, he deserves our pity because that man is operating within us. We are that stupid man, we are not separate from him.
To the ignorant man sorrow is a constant reminder of his own stupidity.
And to observe the stupidity of an ignorant man, one feels his tragedy because his tragedy is your tragedy. What makes the stupid mans predicament so unfortunate is that he doesn’t have what it takes to actually change.
He appears permanently stunted. Even wise men are stunted in certain ways.
I don’t claim to be perfect, I don’t claim to be free from sorrow. So we are all in this sorrow-boat together.
And why I pity the stupid man is because he blindly falls on his face over and over and is unable to pick himself back up.
he is truly caught in hell.
Surely no matter how stupid the man, he deserves our pity because that man is operating within us. We are that stupid man, we are not separate from him.
Nietschke said 'God is Dead'...there is no Judgemental God over the rainbow dishing out rewards and punishment...
Metaphysics, being a discussion of 'what form should a Man's Life take'...for a man to hit a jackpot such as Nirvana or Heaven...was a useless preoccupation...deluded.
Martin Heidegger said...Nietschke is the culmination of the entire history of Western Philosophy in that he signals the end of metaphysics....
....because Nietschke's fundamental metaphysical position is the end of metaphysics he performs the grandest and most profound integration of all fundamental positions....
...Nietschke was an historical event...
Metaphysics does not reveal the Truth about our World or Ourselves...It's Interpretation...it's Meaning Making.
Quit Running Scripts...hehe
frank
Metaphysics, being a discussion of 'what form should a Man's Life take'...for a man to hit a jackpot such as Nirvana or Heaven...was a useless preoccupation...deluded.
Martin Heidegger said...Nietschke is the culmination of the entire history of Western Philosophy in that he signals the end of metaphysics....
....because Nietschke's fundamental metaphysical position is the end of metaphysics he performs the grandest and most profound integration of all fundamental positions....
...Nietschke was an historical event...
Metaphysics does not reveal the Truth about our World or Ourselves...It's Interpretation...it's Meaning Making.
Quit Running Scripts...hehe
frank
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MKFaizi
I see physical manifestations of grief nearly every day of my life.
I do not often see "nasty, angry, violent, narcissistic, emotional, black-minded, irrational, thoroughly absorbed in their own petty dramas, unempathetic and condescending towards other people's concerns. In other words, the very worst of all human traits."
I see people whose emotions are pretty well depleted -- no anger, no want for violence; weary of drama; in desperate need of some kind of nourishment -- vitamin B12; Zoloft -- just physically and emotionally depleted. Utterly drained. Pale; mottled; flat; dead-looking.
Grief is black. It is black-minded. I don't think it is intentionally black minded. It is something that simply happens. If your son is killed in Iraq, you might tell yourself, "Well, we had him for nineteen years and he was a joy. I am thankful for those years. I believe in God and I am all right with my son going to Heaven."
Looks good on paper.
Rationalizations.
Reality is the loss of a huge attachment and takes a toll. Huge psychological wound that also takes a physical toll.
I have encountered many losses of attachments through death. Husband, best friend, other best friend.
The best thing is to realize that the wounds suffered from loss will take time to heal. Take a inward look at the gaping wound.
If a person in grief is absorbed in his own petty dramas, he needs a wake up call.
I have had a few. Some months after my husband died, someone said to me, "So, are you going to play the part of the poor widow for the rest of your life?"
Good sharp prick.
Loss of attachment is a huge wound. But there is a time limit on healing. No one should be allowed to wallow in it for more than one year.
So, the National Enquirer wants to know -- who died?
Faizi
I do not often see "nasty, angry, violent, narcissistic, emotional, black-minded, irrational, thoroughly absorbed in their own petty dramas, unempathetic and condescending towards other people's concerns. In other words, the very worst of all human traits."
I see people whose emotions are pretty well depleted -- no anger, no want for violence; weary of drama; in desperate need of some kind of nourishment -- vitamin B12; Zoloft -- just physically and emotionally depleted. Utterly drained. Pale; mottled; flat; dead-looking.
Grief is black. It is black-minded. I don't think it is intentionally black minded. It is something that simply happens. If your son is killed in Iraq, you might tell yourself, "Well, we had him for nineteen years and he was a joy. I am thankful for those years. I believe in God and I am all right with my son going to Heaven."
Looks good on paper.
Rationalizations.
Reality is the loss of a huge attachment and takes a toll. Huge psychological wound that also takes a physical toll.
I have encountered many losses of attachments through death. Husband, best friend, other best friend.
The best thing is to realize that the wounds suffered from loss will take time to heal. Take a inward look at the gaping wound.
If a person in grief is absorbed in his own petty dramas, he needs a wake up call.
I have had a few. Some months after my husband died, someone said to me, "So, are you going to play the part of the poor widow for the rest of your life?"
Good sharp prick.
Loss of attachment is a huge wound. But there is a time limit on healing. No one should be allowed to wallow in it for more than one year.
So, the National Enquirer wants to know -- who died?
Faizi
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Cory Duchesne
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DQ wrote:
Grief is like a woman. It provokes and usually succeeds at motivating humanity to maintain its stupidity.
To find oneself grieving intensely, is to be forced to face the very state that one spends ones whole life trying to avoid via the very attitude that causes grief. Such an attitude desires to not know everything, and instead desires to have worldly comforts. Such a mind desires to have what the other people have, those other people who seem to be the more ideal model. The ignorant mind wants to be like and conform to the attitudes of those who it sees living more safely and securely.
The ignorant mind wants to have and perhaps succeeds at having children, it wants to be adored as well as wants to adore its children, it wants to get married, or manages to get married, it wants to achieve in the office, or in the arts or sciences, it wants to be recognized as special by peers and by a particular mate. The ignorant mind tries to possess and be possessed in order to avoid the sort of state where one begins to see the futility of just about everything.
The state that one spends ones whole life avoiding is one of the most basic requisite stages necessary in order to be enlightened. It is necessary to be totally disturbed by life – to be horrified by the godlessness of it, to be shocked to the very core of ones being. This is what we avoid. And because we avoid such a state, we take pleasure in horror movies, in gambling, in religion, in ideas of higher ‘benevolent’ intelligences, and we take pleasure and comfort in acknowledging other peoples failures and hardships – in other people’s grief. And thus, we oursevles eventually grieve and mourn.
When people have unintelligent, illusion based, cowardly values, it creates conditions from which sudden, undesirable and tragic events can occur, hence the birth of grief.
And thus, following a tragic event, some people are revealed to be unusually unlucky and unfortunate. These unusually unlucky and unfortunate people are then the center from which a movement orbits. Sometimes it is a movement of comedy, of malicious laughter. Sometimes the orbiting movement is nothing less than the ridiculous rituals of false sympathy that are not without a charge of subtle malice.
Humanity engages in rituals of sympathy in order to hide how terrible they are from themselves. God forbid that we understand the deeper causes of the misery of the family member or friend that lies grieving before us. If we should even have a glimpse of the truth, we should be struck with grief ourselves.
The circus show of sympathetic ritual is organized and aimed at the grieving person solely to protect the family and friends of the griever from feeling an even remotely similar grief. We organize sympathetic rituals in order to protect ourselves from the truth, to protect ourselves from the pain of seeing ourselves from an angle that is not so flattering. From an angle that is not so twisted and craven.
Is grief the problem? Or is it even better to say that the problem lies in the drastic unforeseen tragedies that cause great grief? I say both are false. The problem lies in peoples values, their desires. Values are the essence of grief. Grief is the consequence of a much more fundamental problem. It is the values that need to be attacked if we are to slay the whore of grief, for the values are the essence of her.When you watch a grief-stricken person, what do you see? You see a person who is nasty, angry, violent, narcissistic, emotional, black-minded, irrational, thoroughly absorbed in their own petty dramas, unempathetic and condescending towards other people's concerns. In other words, the very worst of all human traits. And yet society teaches us that we should respect these people and tip-toe around them, even to the point of subjugating our own desires and values in the process. Can the priorities of the human race be any more askew? Can there be any greater proof that society is thoroughly evil?
Grief is like a woman. It provokes and usually succeeds at motivating humanity to maintain its stupidity.
To find oneself grieving intensely, is to be forced to face the very state that one spends ones whole life trying to avoid via the very attitude that causes grief. Such an attitude desires to not know everything, and instead desires to have worldly comforts. Such a mind desires to have what the other people have, those other people who seem to be the more ideal model. The ignorant mind wants to be like and conform to the attitudes of those who it sees living more safely and securely.
The ignorant mind wants to have and perhaps succeeds at having children, it wants to be adored as well as wants to adore its children, it wants to get married, or manages to get married, it wants to achieve in the office, or in the arts or sciences, it wants to be recognized as special by peers and by a particular mate. The ignorant mind tries to possess and be possessed in order to avoid the sort of state where one begins to see the futility of just about everything.
The state that one spends ones whole life avoiding is one of the most basic requisite stages necessary in order to be enlightened. It is necessary to be totally disturbed by life – to be horrified by the godlessness of it, to be shocked to the very core of ones being. This is what we avoid. And because we avoid such a state, we take pleasure in horror movies, in gambling, in religion, in ideas of higher ‘benevolent’ intelligences, and we take pleasure and comfort in acknowledging other peoples failures and hardships – in other people’s grief. And thus, we oursevles eventually grieve and mourn.
When people have unintelligent, illusion based, cowardly values, it creates conditions from which sudden, undesirable and tragic events can occur, hence the birth of grief.
And thus, following a tragic event, some people are revealed to be unusually unlucky and unfortunate. These unusually unlucky and unfortunate people are then the center from which a movement orbits. Sometimes it is a movement of comedy, of malicious laughter. Sometimes the orbiting movement is nothing less than the ridiculous rituals of false sympathy that are not without a charge of subtle malice.
Humanity engages in rituals of sympathy in order to hide how terrible they are from themselves. God forbid that we understand the deeper causes of the misery of the family member or friend that lies grieving before us. If we should even have a glimpse of the truth, we should be struck with grief ourselves.
The circus show of sympathetic ritual is organized and aimed at the grieving person solely to protect the family and friends of the griever from feeling an even remotely similar grief. We organize sympathetic rituals in order to protect ourselves from the truth, to protect ourselves from the pain of seeing ourselves from an angle that is not so flattering. From an angle that is not so twisted and craven.
Last edited by Cory Duchesne on Sat May 27, 2006 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Grieving people are the ugliest people
DavidQuinn000 wrote:When you watch a grief-stricken person, what do you see? You see a person who is nasty, angry, violent, narcissistic, emotional, black-minded, irrational, thoroughly absorbed in their own petty dramas, unempathetic and condescending towards other people's concerns. In other words, the very worst of all human traits.
And yet society teaches us that we should respect these people and tip-toe around them, even to the point of subjugating our own desires and values in the process. Can the priorities of the human race be any more askew? Can there be any greater proof that society is thoroughly evil?
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People who look down upon grief stricken people and think of them as nasty, angry, violent, narcissistic, emotional, black-minded, irrational beings are displaying the very worst of all human traits.
Self-righteous "I'm better than thou" typical human egoism.
I feel for these people and I wish I could help them, but I can't, they can only help themselves.
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Cory Duchesne
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Cosmic prostitute wrote:
That "unable to pick himself back up" comment to end your sentence seems exaggerated - a bit too dramatic for me. Was it written to induce some sort of emotion in the reader?
People fall, and they get back up.
If they don't get back up, well then I think we should consider them dead or close to it. Which is probably, in most cases, for humanity's own good.
When Christopher Reeves fell off his horse and was paralyzed, what did he procceed to do after he 'picked himself back up?'
He started organizations aimed at helping people with 'his' condition.
When Michael J Fox picked himself up following his diagnosis of parkinstons disease, what did he do? He started an organization devoted to parkinstons disease.
A lady my mom works with caught some sort of disease that caused her to lose all her hair. She was an incredibly vain women who was bed-ridden in depression for almost a year because of her loss of hair. But she eventually 'picked herself up'. And what did she do? She got involved in an organization for helping people cope with the disease that makes you lose your hair - oh yeah, and of course she got herself a very stylish wig.
When my mom sees me down in the dumps, she occassionally likes to say: "well, you know what maryilyn from work says don't you Cory? If you want to change the way you feel - change the way you think!"
People don't do these good deeds out of pity. It is self pity.
There is simply the desire to break out of the stifling limitations that ones shallow values have created.
Generally people do not become deeper until whatever happiness their shallowness had given them becomes irrevocably depleated or taken away by some frightening aspect of reality that one has yet to face up to.
From the suffering of limitation - people search and discover ways of living that arent as shallow in order to end the suffering of being so limited. This is only because they have realized that whatever pleasures their shallow attitude once provided, now only occurs at an undesirable interval. Why? why has my pleasure been taken away? How can I still be proud of my life now that I'm suddenly more limited than I was?
This is the sort of feeling a teenager might have when he moves from the little school to the bigger school.
Only last year the kid was at the top grade of the school.
Suddenly he is now at the lowest grade. What does he do?
He starts wearing cooler clothes, starts smoking, selling drugs, he conforms to whatever actions give power.
Your actions have nothing to do with compassion for others and everything to do with the overcoming the conditions which have created your self pity.
Dont you agree with me when I say that people who say they act out of pity and compassion are just flattering themselves?
There is 1) delusion, 2) suffering, 3) the desire to end suffering, and 4) the truth.
I don't know cpAnd why I pity the stupid man is because he blindly falls on his face over and over and is unable to pick himself back up.
That "unable to pick himself back up" comment to end your sentence seems exaggerated - a bit too dramatic for me. Was it written to induce some sort of emotion in the reader?
People fall, and they get back up.
If they don't get back up, well then I think we should consider them dead or close to it. Which is probably, in most cases, for humanity's own good.
When Christopher Reeves fell off his horse and was paralyzed, what did he procceed to do after he 'picked himself back up?'
He started organizations aimed at helping people with 'his' condition.
When Michael J Fox picked himself up following his diagnosis of parkinstons disease, what did he do? He started an organization devoted to parkinstons disease.
A lady my mom works with caught some sort of disease that caused her to lose all her hair. She was an incredibly vain women who was bed-ridden in depression for almost a year because of her loss of hair. But she eventually 'picked herself up'. And what did she do? She got involved in an organization for helping people cope with the disease that makes you lose your hair - oh yeah, and of course she got herself a very stylish wig.
When my mom sees me down in the dumps, she occassionally likes to say: "well, you know what maryilyn from work says don't you Cory? If you want to change the way you feel - change the way you think!"
People don't do these good deeds out of pity. It is self pity.
There is simply the desire to break out of the stifling limitations that ones shallow values have created.
Generally people do not become deeper until whatever happiness their shallowness had given them becomes irrevocably depleated or taken away by some frightening aspect of reality that one has yet to face up to.
From the suffering of limitation - people search and discover ways of living that arent as shallow in order to end the suffering of being so limited. This is only because they have realized that whatever pleasures their shallow attitude once provided, now only occurs at an undesirable interval. Why? why has my pleasure been taken away? How can I still be proud of my life now that I'm suddenly more limited than I was?
This is the sort of feeling a teenager might have when he moves from the little school to the bigger school.
Only last year the kid was at the top grade of the school.
Suddenly he is now at the lowest grade. What does he do?
He starts wearing cooler clothes, starts smoking, selling drugs, he conforms to whatever actions give power.
Your actions have nothing to do with compassion for others and everything to do with the overcoming the conditions which have created your self pity.
Dont you agree with me when I say that people who say they act out of pity and compassion are just flattering themselves?
There is 1) delusion, 2) suffering, 3) the desire to end suffering, and 4) the truth.
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Ryan Rudolph
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I don’t know Cory
I think compassion is the same as saying disturbed by another’s tragedy.
You even said earlier in your thread that humanity needs to be disturbed by life.
I watch day after day how feeble my father is, how he comes home partially intoxicated night after night and gets in the same arguments with my mother that they have been having for twenty years.
it hurts to see the sinner on his face, how he grins his melchoncholy smile.
It is sad to watch simply because one is sensitive enough to be aware of the truth of the whole thing.
One suffers because they suffer. This is what I meant by compassion, it is not a choice, it is being disturbed by the actions of others.
How about this:
There is 1) delusion, 2) suffering to oneself 3.) Suffering of another which causes suffering on you 3) the desire to end suffering, and 4) the truth.
I think compassion is the same as saying disturbed by another’s tragedy.
You even said earlier in your thread that humanity needs to be disturbed by life.
I watch day after day how feeble my father is, how he comes home partially intoxicated night after night and gets in the same arguments with my mother that they have been having for twenty years.
it hurts to see the sinner on his face, how he grins his melchoncholy smile.
It is sad to watch simply because one is sensitive enough to be aware of the truth of the whole thing.
One suffers because they suffer. This is what I meant by compassion, it is not a choice, it is being disturbed by the actions of others.
How about this:
There is 1) delusion, 2) suffering to oneself 3.) Suffering of another which causes suffering on you 3) the desire to end suffering, and 4) the truth.
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David Quinn
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Hades wrote:
That's certainly what society likes to teach us. It would make for an interesting psychological exercise to examine why.
If this is how we are supposed to behave, then it's no wonder the planet is going down the gurgler. This insanity is everywhere, it's too much. It is slowly crushing the life out of the planet. And hardly anyone seems to care.
I can perhaps "feel" for a child falling into grief when losing a parent or friend or whatever, for they are too young to know any better. But for anyone over 25 to fall into grief .... really, they should be utterly ashamed of themselves.
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DQ: When you watch a grief-stricken person, what do you see? You see a person who is nasty, angry, violent, narcissistic, emotional, black-minded, irrational, thoroughly absorbed in their own petty dramas, unempathetic and condescending towards other people's concerns. In other words, the very worst of all human traits.
And yet society teaches us that we should respect these people and tip-toe around them, even to the point of subjugating our own desires and values in the process. Can the priorities of the human race be any more askew? Can there be any greater proof that society is thoroughly evil?
Hades: People who look down upon grief stricken people and think of them as nasty, angry, violent, narcissistic, emotional, black-minded, irrational beings are displaying the very worst of all human traits.
That's certainly what society likes to teach us. It would make for an interesting psychological exercise to examine why.
Why do you feel for these people? They have greedily attached themselves to a person, or a thing, in order to suck out as much pleasure as possible, and then, when Nature comes along and takes away their plaything, they completely lose the plot and fall into a prolonged, black-minded, narcissistic tantrum. And we are supposed to respect this?I feel for these people and I wish I could help them, but I can't, they can only help themselves.
If this is how we are supposed to behave, then it's no wonder the planet is going down the gurgler. This insanity is everywhere, it's too much. It is slowly crushing the life out of the planet. And hardly anyone seems to care.
I can perhaps "feel" for a child falling into grief when losing a parent or friend or whatever, for they are too young to know any better. But for anyone over 25 to fall into grief .... really, they should be utterly ashamed of themselves.
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David Quinn
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Marsha wrote:
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Being a nurse, the people you are seeing are probably still in a state of shock, having just lost a loved one. Grief has yet to take hold. Or do you think that is inaccurate?I see physical manifestations of grief nearly every day of my life.
I do not often see "nasty, angry, violent, narcissistic, emotional, black-minded, irrational, thoroughly absorbed in their own petty dramas, unempathetic and condescending towards other people's concerns. In other words, the very worst of all human traits."
I see people whose emotions are pretty well depleted -- no anger, no want for violence; weary of drama; in desperate need of some kind of nourishment -- vitamin B12; Zoloft -- just physically and emotionally depleted. Utterly drained. Pale; mottled; flat; dead-looking.
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MKFaizi
To a point, I agree with you. People do tend to wallow in grief sometimes. But an attachment is not called an attachment for nothing. Losing an attachment kind of feels like having a limb chopped off. Just this huge thing missing. People do grieve over the loss of a limb in much the same way as someone grieves over the loss of a wife or best friend. Much of this is not drama or intentional. You may encounter someone who says, "Well, my best friend died but it's not that big a deal." He thinks he can handle it. He thinks he understands attachment. He thinks death is a process of nature but the deep inner psychology of the human being is not rational. You can tell yourself this and that thing and you can believe this and that thing but loss of attachment -- even if you know better -- is going to take a toll, no matter what a Buddha you may be.But for anyone over 25 to fall into grief .... they should be utterly ashamed of themselves.
Grief takes on physical manifestations. The spouse left behind often dies a couple of months later. Friends follow friends into the grave -- not consciously.
Two years ago, one seventeen year old good friend of my daughter died. The kid was like The Fonz. Had this magic touch. Fit in with anybody. Could do anything. A lot of natural charisma. Preps loved him. Rednecks loved him. Jocks loved him. Gangstas and niggas loved him. Teachers loved him. Had the singing voice of an angel. Drank plenty of beer and smoked plenty of weed. Free spirit. Lived on his own since he was sixteen. Worked two jobs.
Since his death, twelve other kids in the same age group have been killed. That's a lot of kids in a small town. Three other kids came close to death but had brain damage -- one seventeen year old so severely brain injured that she will spend the rest of her life in a nursing home. The other two recovered significantly. The one is going to college next year. Her brain injury was very serious and just a little jar could put her in a nursing home for life.
So, I kind of wonder about grief. Grief tends to breed more reason for grief. Grief breeds death. The Fonz kid's class is graduating this year so I am hoping that that will break the chain of teenage deaths that has been rampant here for two years.
Faizi
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Cory Duchesne
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CP wrote:
When you witness another’s tragedy, you, shortly following the moment of witnessing another’s misfortune, are in some form of self-pity – whether it is a state of insecurity, dread, loathing, fear, shame, anger, hatred, disrespect, contempt - or - occasionally you might find yourself feeling relieved and thankful that it is not you who is taking the brunt, but rather, the other poor fellow. But there is no pity in the sense of there being someone who is more aware looking down with pity at the fool who is less aware.
There is no desire to help your fellow man because you feel sorry for him or her.
There is only the desire to make him, her, them - more like you.
You want people to be more like you, and this is only because you dislike people for being different than you. Other peoples stupidity and intelligence is making you insecure. If someone is more intelligent then you - you want them dumbed down. If they are dumber than you - you want them smarter.
If you don’t see any possibility of the person in your life changing to the benefit of you – then you will wish to abandon him (her, them), or you might even desire to see him (her, them) destroyed. Or you may submit to a person or group if you are overwhelmed by his, her, their power.
I gave the example of Christopher Reeve suddenly becoming charitable towards paralysis organizations after he himself was paralyzed.
Likewise, when you come to adopt an uncommon point of view –you suffer much more for it than you would if you kept the point of view that your family, community, country, general population, woman wanted you to have.
Consequently, you deal with your suffering by proceeding to influence people to see things more like you do and/or support people who see things like you do.
The QRS is a good example of that. They have gradually come to a point of view that makes them ‘very’ at odds with most. Naturally they started and continue to try influencing people to see life more like them.
They do this because that is how they deal with their individual suffering. To suffer is to feel divided.
To desire an end to suffering is to desire union with all.
It has nothing to do with feeling pity and sympathy for the all -- -on the contrary you harbor an unusual level of hatred for them and do not respect them for being unlike you are. You want what they are destroyed and/or reborn as a servant of you in order that you can feel good about serving them.
cp wrote:
Everyone in your life is trying to control you in some way.
When I say we are too sympathetic, I mean, we don’t confront our fellow man directly, we don't disturb him by turning his eyes towards what he pays no heed to on his own initiative.
This is because we fear being hurt, we fear the suffering and guilt that might come if we say to him what will make him fall apart, breakdown. We fear losing his, her, their support, respect, pressence, companionship, etc, etc.
If we were truly compassionate and humble we would respond honestly and ruthlessly instead of diplomatically.
But we fear suffering. Since we don’t want to suffer, since we are not compassionate, humble - we are diplomatic, secretly sadistic, confronting people directly only on message boards with pseudonyms.
Message boards, because they offer people the chance to interact in anonymity, are great places to have ones true colors revealed to oneself. This is especially the case when a message board is designed to siphon gold from the silt of the world, which I feel this one is.
Personally, I’m in pain a great deal of the time.
But I don’t fool myself into thinking I have this pity for mankind – although I once did not too long ago (last week I think?).
I have isolation and I desire union. That is all.
You and I have despair, insecurity, fear and frustration.
I do understand that it hurts to see a parent confused and weak. But it is self-pity none-the-less.
My experience tells me that parents are an extension of the child’s ego - and just as inimically, vice versa.
There are plenty of alcoholics out there. Don’t you find it suspicious that the one you feel a particular compassion for just so happens to be a parent?
You feel unlucky, you feel despair, you feel frustration with the state of your father, which is ultimately, in part, the state of yourself.
You desire him to see things more like you in order to alleviate your suffering, your self-pity.
And I desire you to see things more like me in order that it might alleviate my own suffering and make life fuller.
You must throw away that rotten concept of pity and take a more honest look at what really is.
There is the tendency to become hypnotized by the more pleasant, noble sounding explanations.
CP wrote:
I say there is a state of non-being - where there is only one undivided whole that one ‘is’.
If you are not functioning in that way – then you are in a state of self-pity, agitation, frustration, fear, insecurity, anxiety, hatred, deluded hapiness, etc, etc.
CP wrote:
You react to this predicament with false explanations to protect your self from further suffering.
CP wrote:
CP wrote:
The etymological root meaning of the word compassion is: to suffer
I think compassion is the same as saying disturbed by another’s tragedy.
When you witness another’s tragedy, you, shortly following the moment of witnessing another’s misfortune, are in some form of self-pity – whether it is a state of insecurity, dread, loathing, fear, shame, anger, hatred, disrespect, contempt - or - occasionally you might find yourself feeling relieved and thankful that it is not you who is taking the brunt, but rather, the other poor fellow. But there is no pity in the sense of there being someone who is more aware looking down with pity at the fool who is less aware.
There is no desire to help your fellow man because you feel sorry for him or her.
There is only the desire to make him, her, them - more like you.
You want people to be more like you, and this is only because you dislike people for being different than you. Other peoples stupidity and intelligence is making you insecure. If someone is more intelligent then you - you want them dumbed down. If they are dumber than you - you want them smarter.
If you don’t see any possibility of the person in your life changing to the benefit of you – then you will wish to abandon him (her, them), or you might even desire to see him (her, them) destroyed. Or you may submit to a person or group if you are overwhelmed by his, her, their power.
I gave the example of Christopher Reeve suddenly becoming charitable towards paralysis organizations after he himself was paralyzed.
Likewise, when you come to adopt an uncommon point of view –you suffer much more for it than you would if you kept the point of view that your family, community, country, general population, woman wanted you to have.
Consequently, you deal with your suffering by proceeding to influence people to see things more like you do and/or support people who see things like you do.
The QRS is a good example of that. They have gradually come to a point of view that makes them ‘very’ at odds with most. Naturally they started and continue to try influencing people to see life more like them.
They do this because that is how they deal with their individual suffering. To suffer is to feel divided.
To desire an end to suffering is to desire union with all.
It has nothing to do with feeling pity and sympathy for the all -- -on the contrary you harbor an unusual level of hatred for them and do not respect them for being unlike you are. You want what they are destroyed and/or reborn as a servant of you in order that you can feel good about serving them.
cp wrote:
Yes, and generally, we’re so sympathetic toward ourselves and toward others that we cannot bring ourselves to confront and disturb ourselves [and/or] whoever it is in our life who is trying to control us.You even said earlier in your thread that humanity needs to be disturbed by life.
Everyone in your life is trying to control you in some way.
When I say we are too sympathetic, I mean, we don’t confront our fellow man directly, we don't disturb him by turning his eyes towards what he pays no heed to on his own initiative.
This is because we fear being hurt, we fear the suffering and guilt that might come if we say to him what will make him fall apart, breakdown. We fear losing his, her, their support, respect, pressence, companionship, etc, etc.
If we were truly compassionate and humble we would respond honestly and ruthlessly instead of diplomatically.
But we fear suffering. Since we don’t want to suffer, since we are not compassionate, humble - we are diplomatic, secretly sadistic, confronting people directly only on message boards with pseudonyms.
Message boards, because they offer people the chance to interact in anonymity, are great places to have ones true colors revealed to oneself. This is especially the case when a message board is designed to siphon gold from the silt of the world, which I feel this one is.
What you just described to me doesn’t sound like pity, but just sheer frustration with the feebleness of what you have to work with on a day to day basis.I watch day after day how feeble my father is, how he comes home partially intoxicated night after night and gets in the same arguments with my mother that they have been having for twenty years.
it hurts to see the sinner on his face, how he grins his melchoncholy smile.
Personally, I’m in pain a great deal of the time.
But I don’t fool myself into thinking I have this pity for mankind – although I once did not too long ago (last week I think?).
I have isolation and I desire union. That is all.
You and I have despair, insecurity, fear and frustration.
I do understand that it hurts to see a parent confused and weak. But it is self-pity none-the-less.
My experience tells me that parents are an extension of the child’s ego - and just as inimically, vice versa.
There are plenty of alcoholics out there. Don’t you find it suspicious that the one you feel a particular compassion for just so happens to be a parent?
You feel unlucky, you feel despair, you feel frustration with the state of your father, which is ultimately, in part, the state of yourself.
You desire him to see things more like you in order to alleviate your suffering, your self-pity.
And I desire you to see things more like me in order that it might alleviate my own suffering and make life fuller.
You must throw away that rotten concept of pity and take a more honest look at what really is.
There is the tendency to become hypnotized by the more pleasant, noble sounding explanations.
CP wrote:
Yes, the greater the awareness, the greater the sadness. But that doesn’t mean you feel pity for them. There is self-pity. But no pity. My problem with pity is that the word implies that there is someone higher up looking down at those below. I'm not saying that there is not the more aware being in relationship to the less aware being. But the more aware being doesnt feel pity for the less aware being. On the contary the more aware being is undergoing greater suffering. He has more hatred for the less aware being. That is not to say the lesser being does not hate the higher being. It is often mutual, but sometimes not.It is sad to watch simply because one is sensitive enough to be aware of the truth of the whole thing.
I say there is a state of non-being - where there is only one undivided whole that one ‘is’.
If you are not functioning in that way – then you are in a state of self-pity, agitation, frustration, fear, insecurity, anxiety, hatred, deluded hapiness, etc, etc.
CP wrote:
You suffer because the behavior of the other is making you insecure, the behavior of the other is pointing your mind towards an abyss, the behavior of the other is pointing you towards despair.One suffers because [other people] suffer.
You react to this predicament with false explanations to protect your self from further suffering.
CP wrote:
Being disturbed by someone’s behavior leaves your involuntarily feeling hatred, contempt, and frustration with the person. You want to change that person to make them more like you – or you want to abandon them – or you want to see them destroyed – or you want to submit to them because they seem to be a beneficial force or perhaps just an overwhelmingly seductive or a frighteningly powerful force.This is what I meant by compassion, it is not a choice, it is being disturbed by the actions of others.
CP wrote:
Why do you divide the observer from the observed? I like the way I put it better because I didn’t divide my suffering from your suffering.
How about this:
There is 1) delusion, 2) suffering to oneself 3.) Suffering of another which causes suffering on you 3) the desire to end suffering, and 4) the truth.
Last edited by Cory Duchesne on Sat May 27, 2006 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MKFaizi
David Quinn wrote:
Generally, after a year, the shock subsides and the wound starts to heal. Healing is not grief. You never forget the person -- my husband, my two best friends. I think of them every day. But, in a year, you do get past the shock. It is like a granulating wound. At first, you just have blood and raw meat, But in a year, you have scar tissue.
The scar takes a toll. I think that kind of shock takes a year or so off one's life. But you heal. I think you are always conscious of the scars.
You become guarded and wary. I have no best friend or intimate acquaintance. I am not willing to withstand any further shock.
I recall one man from a year ago who had some indigestion. We did this thing and that thing and tried this med and that med. He was losing weight. Finally, we sent him for a abdominal/chest CT. He and his wife came in for the results. I called for the results and I remember standing by the fax, reading the thing as it came across. He had cancer in every corner of his body -- liver, pancreas, spleen, stomach, prostate, lungs; colon.
Then, you have to walk into that room and say, "Well, this kind of sucks."
Dude had indigestion. He was dead in two weeks.
We still see his widow. She is not a wallower. Very hard working woman in her mid sixties. I think she is starting to heal. Been about a year and a half. It has been a bitch. But I think she is going to get past the hurdle.
No, she is not conscious. She is not a sage. She will never be enlightened. But she is going to survive profound shock.
I am not sure how you define grief. I define it as shock at loss of attachment. Shock is life threatening.
If you mean grief as wallowing in self pity, I seldom see it. It does take about a year to get past the shock. I also think multiple deaths take a toll. One can imagine the shock of a soldier coming home from Vietnam or Iraq I or Iraq II. I think young people heal from shock sooner than older people. That is why the ideal soldier is eighteen years old.
Death is always a reality. But people tend to sublimate that. You especially sublimate the fact that young people die. All parents expect their kids to outlive them.
I think that death and loss of attachment should be taught in high school -- not for a grade.
Faizi
Yes, they are still in a state of shock. To me, grief is a state of shock. That's it. Even if your attachment is ninety years old and very ill, the loss still results in shock and shock takes about a year to wear off.Being a nurse, the people you are seeing are probably still in a state of shock, having just lost a loved one. Grief has yet to take hold. Or do you think that is inaccurate?
Generally, after a year, the shock subsides and the wound starts to heal. Healing is not grief. You never forget the person -- my husband, my two best friends. I think of them every day. But, in a year, you do get past the shock. It is like a granulating wound. At first, you just have blood and raw meat, But in a year, you have scar tissue.
The scar takes a toll. I think that kind of shock takes a year or so off one's life. But you heal. I think you are always conscious of the scars.
You become guarded and wary. I have no best friend or intimate acquaintance. I am not willing to withstand any further shock.
I recall one man from a year ago who had some indigestion. We did this thing and that thing and tried this med and that med. He was losing weight. Finally, we sent him for a abdominal/chest CT. He and his wife came in for the results. I called for the results and I remember standing by the fax, reading the thing as it came across. He had cancer in every corner of his body -- liver, pancreas, spleen, stomach, prostate, lungs; colon.
Then, you have to walk into that room and say, "Well, this kind of sucks."
Dude had indigestion. He was dead in two weeks.
We still see his widow. She is not a wallower. Very hard working woman in her mid sixties. I think she is starting to heal. Been about a year and a half. It has been a bitch. But I think she is going to get past the hurdle.
No, she is not conscious. She is not a sage. She will never be enlightened. But she is going to survive profound shock.
I am not sure how you define grief. I define it as shock at loss of attachment. Shock is life threatening.
If you mean grief as wallowing in self pity, I seldom see it. It does take about a year to get past the shock. I also think multiple deaths take a toll. One can imagine the shock of a soldier coming home from Vietnam or Iraq I or Iraq II. I think young people heal from shock sooner than older people. That is why the ideal soldier is eighteen years old.
Death is always a reality. But people tend to sublimate that. You especially sublimate the fact that young people die. All parents expect their kids to outlive them.
I think that death and loss of attachment should be taught in high school -- not for a grade.
Faizi
Last edited by MKFaizi on Fri May 26, 2006 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Human Being shows many Faces...
Sad Faces.
Happy Faces.
Gloom is written large on a Face as is Grief as is Happiness as is Anger as is Fear.
It depends on prior causes.
A Face is a Book you read.
One Human's Face fluctuates wildly thru' the course of his/her life...even thru' the course of a day...
It's quite a display.
Apply time exposure photography on One Human's Face thru' the course of a day and the Comedy becomes apparent to the Observer.
It's emotion that is writ large on the Human Face...
The Flux of moving from one emotional state to another to another to another is a remarkable event to observe detachedly.
Really, there's nothing to fix.
It's perfect.
A Universe without it as a design feature isn't here and now.
It's like the Weather...you can see a Storm Brewing in a Face..you can see when a point is reached where there's lightning flashes or flashes of anger...there's a point where the tears fall like rain...and after the rain the happy face of a blue sky and sunshine...
It is really quite spectacularly beautiful, this flux, there is neither reason to judge it perjoratively nor intervene in the drama as it plays itself out...
frank
Sad Faces.
Happy Faces.
Gloom is written large on a Face as is Grief as is Happiness as is Anger as is Fear.
It depends on prior causes.
A Face is a Book you read.
One Human's Face fluctuates wildly thru' the course of his/her life...even thru' the course of a day...
It's quite a display.
Apply time exposure photography on One Human's Face thru' the course of a day and the Comedy becomes apparent to the Observer.
It's emotion that is writ large on the Human Face...
The Flux of moving from one emotional state to another to another to another is a remarkable event to observe detachedly.
Really, there's nothing to fix.
It's perfect.
A Universe without it as a design feature isn't here and now.
It's like the Weather...you can see a Storm Brewing in a Face..you can see when a point is reached where there's lightning flashes or flashes of anger...there's a point where the tears fall like rain...and after the rain the happy face of a blue sky and sunshine...
It is really quite spectacularly beautiful, this flux, there is neither reason to judge it perjoratively nor intervene in the drama as it plays itself out...
frank
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MKFaizi
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MKFaizi
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Ryan Rudolph
- Posts: 2490
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:32 am
- Location: British Columbia, Canada
Cory wrote:
Challenging a philosopher is different because they have developed somewhat of an emotional awareness, and can take the pain of truth to grow from it. It’s actually worth the suffering.
Guys like Jesus seemed to lack this understanding, he behaved much like a drunk teenage boy at a party full of virgin girls meaning he ran around randomly trying to stick his prick into whoever was in his presence.
And we all know what happened to Jesus…
Cory wrote:
Cory's wrote:
Its not diplomacy, it called fear in its right place.
Cory wrote:
Cory wrote:
But there is also being sensitive to the others suffering just by being in the room. If there is jealousy, yelling, etc and if one is completely empty, one feels the whole movement.
But I agree there is nothing special, noble about it.
Cory wrote:
Cory wrote:
I made the distinction to illustrate this phenomenon.
Yes, but there is a certain futility in it, challenging an incredibly stupid man to his face is just like sticking your arm into a wild fire.When I say we are too sympathetic, I mean, we don’t confront our fellow man directly, we don't disturb him by turning his eyes towards what he pays no heed to on his own initiative.
This is because we fear being hurt, we fear the suffering and guilt that might come if we say to him what will make him fall apart, breakdown. We fear losing his, her, their support, respect, pressence, companionship, etc, etc.
Challenging a philosopher is different because they have developed somewhat of an emotional awareness, and can take the pain of truth to grow from it. It’s actually worth the suffering.
Guys like Jesus seemed to lack this understanding, he behaved much like a drunk teenage boy at a party full of virgin girls meaning he ran around randomly trying to stick his prick into whoever was in his presence.
And we all know what happened to Jesus…
Cory wrote:
I don’t know, I’m not going to stick my head into the Lion’s mouth if he bites it off every time, I just don’t believe some men can be tamed by truth’s arrow so what’s the point?If we were truly compassionate and humble we would respond honestly and ruthlessly instead of diplomatically.
Cory's wrote:
So you’re suggesting we should all relentlessly confront the incredibly stupid men of the world just based on your principle that one shouldnt fear suffering?But we fear suffering. Since we don’t want to suffer.
Its not diplomacy, it called fear in its right place.
Cory wrote:
I agree that there is no personal compassion or pity. the words can be disceiving.There are plenty of alcoholics out there. Don’t you find it suspicious that the one you feel a particular compassion for just so happens to be a parent?
Cory wrote:
Yes, his stupidity causes frustration, my father smokes which causes a burning hatred.You feel unlucky, you feel despair, you feel frustration with the state of your father, which is ultimately, in part, the state of yourself.
But there is also being sensitive to the others suffering just by being in the room. If there is jealousy, yelling, etc and if one is completely empty, one feels the whole movement.
But I agree there is nothing special, noble about it.
Cory wrote:
Yes, pity is a misleading word, how about choiceless suffering of their emotional field?But that doesn’t mean you feel pity for them.
Cory wrote:
I was pointing out that there is suffering based on the individual’s action and there is suffering based on the people acting in their life. And the choiceless suffering from being sensitive to their emotional field occurs when one is sensitive to the deluded behavior of people in their life.Why do you divide the observer from the observed? I like the way I put it better because I didn’t divide my suffering from your suffering.
I made the distinction to illustrate this phenomenon.
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MKFaizi
CP wrote:
Exactly how have you suffered?
If this is existentialism, I think existentialism sucks.
What caused your suffering?
Nevermind. It is plain that you have learned nothing.
Faizi
So much for theory.I was pointing out that there is suffering based on the individual’s action and there is suffering based on the people acting in their life. And the choiceless suffering from being sensitive to their emotional field occurs when one is sensitive to the deluded behavior of people in their life.
Exactly how have you suffered?
If this is existentialism, I think existentialism sucks.
What caused your suffering?
Nevermind. It is plain that you have learned nothing.
Faizi
Faizi sees what Faizi sees thru' the Filter of Faizi's prejudices..that's what makes Faizi what Faizi is...Faizi Interprets.Faizi:I am fifty-three years old and I have never seen a happy face of blue sky and sunshine -- not even in a baby.
A Camera would constitute a Viewpoint of complete detachedness...a Camera is not a Human Being...a Human Being is unlikely to be completely detached...a Human Being has a stake in it's observations and 'spins' accordingly...in this way the observer is the observed...Faizi:I get the distinct feeling that people writing here have no direct experience with loss of attachment.
frank