The path to wisdom in a nutshell

[jufa]

It is a fallacy to believe the mind can be emptied in meditation because the mind is who the individual meditating is. The key to meditation is to slow down ones being so their thought body can no longer be dominated by the activity of the imagination which is "as a charioteer being drawn by two head strong horses going in opposites directions."

So the issue here is not quieting the mind, but realizing two must be synchronized in stillness of the unconditioned Mind. When dealing with duality, man will continuously seek two positions because he has a split personality. When dealing with non-duality, man is confined to an inner opinion based upon what others have taught and are teaching. Counterpart theories is one seat of dualism opposing itself and can never be conclusive, and therefore always divided even in meditation when seeking to attain awareness of ones Soul identity.

Attainment of this awareness is "I in the midst of thee am mighty."

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Diebert van Rhijn]

So, my friend meditates a little bit and says, "if you aren't trying to empty your mind, it isn't meditation". I disagree.

What is this unending emptiness in the topic quote? Compared to a blank, empty mind?

Hi Bud, a belated welcome.

Emptying a "mind" would be a sometimes seen as a welcome illusion since upon reflection the mind is nothing but movement and restlessness. Of course one can experience tranquil states at the surface, like in our daily life retreating to silent places shuts off the experience of the world but wouldn't change the world in any way -- it just changes the location and attention for the minute, a moment that is allowed for or created, sometimes with some effort or control.

Emptiness in the sense of existential forms of philosophy could be described as nothing being there but a web of causality stretching out into infinite directions, through time and space. When nothing is "being there", not even some type of "fullness", it could be described as emptiness in its purest sense like the idea of something "unborn".

This way you can see it's a principle and all experience in one. While the blank mind is here merely a sense.

[buddha]

It is a fallacy to believe the mind can be emptied in meditation because the mind is who the individual meditating is. The key to meditation is to slow down ones being so their thought body can no longer be dominated by the activity of the imagination which is "as a charioteer being drawn by two head strong horses going in opposites directions."

So the issue here is not quieting the mind, but realizing two must be synchronized in stillness of the unconditioned Mind. When dealing with duality, man will continuously seek two positions because he has a split personality. When dealing with non-duality, man is confined to an inner opinion based upon what others have taught and are teaching. Counterpart theories is one seat of dualism opposing itself and can never be conclusive, and therefore always divided even in meditation when seeking to attain awareness of ones Soul identity.

Attainment of this awareness is "I in the midst of thee am mighty."

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

Wait, why couldn't I empty myself? Is it that a bowl is always empty simply because it is not its contents? I get that vacuity is not useful, but what of emptiness in the topic poem? Also, what is "ones Soul identity"?

@Diebert, thanks... so, "emptying your mind" is like putting makeup on one's brain activity, while "contemplating infinitude" un-stifles the mind, making wisdom possible? I'm missing the principle part of the emptiness.

[jufa]

buddha wrote: Wait, why couldn't I empty myself? Is it that a bowl is always empty simply because it is not its contents? I get that vacuity is not useful, but what of emptiness in the topic poem? Also, what is "ones Soul identity"?

No one can empty them self because no one did not filled them self. All man's learning, as well as himself exist because of some other[s] desire. All man has inherited is the ongoing DNA code which is of the Ancient of Days. And all man's learning retained within him today came to be from others he has experience by direct contact, or have read and adopted the context of useful words to him, in some manner. That is the bowl, and it is full of nothing of any individual's originality, only what he has stole and attached to the walls of his material consciousness, then claimed was his.

Ones Soul Identity is that Spirit they were before they entered into a programmed flesh body now worn by them. Had not one's Spirit of infinite life not entered into that flesh body others had produced, no individual would be here to testify awareness, for they would have been stillborn. That is Soul Identity.

"Have you such control over yourself that you could retrieve your urine from the dust?" - Gautama the Buddha

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[visheshdewan050193]

snippet of conversation taken from the 'I have realized the Infinite' thread:

"You write that a sage is neither joyful nor content, yet you also write that the nearest comparison for a sage's feeling is "certain high-level, care-free modes of existence in which clarity of mind is accentuated and the normal concerns and worries are completely absent". How are those modes of existence different from joy and contentment?
DQ: In these modes, the mind is too pure for joy and contentment. There is no winning in enlightenment and therefore no occasion for joy. Instead, one taps into something infinitely more amazing - namely, the very source of joy (and all other things)."

Does this seem to be in contradiction with what you described Hui Neng's 'samadhi' in this thread, David?

[Bradley West]

The more we talk about wisdom the more we reveal our ignorance for what we don’t know is the path to wisdom is also the path to ignorance. So, where do we go from here? Any suggestions?

[Pam Seeback]

The more we talk about wisdom the more we reveal our ignorance for what we don’t know is the path to wisdom is also the path to ignorance. So, where do we go from here? Any suggestions?

The path of wisdom is related to the path of ignorance, however, the path of wisdom is not the path of ignorance. If this were the case, there would no difference between the two. Wisdom ends ignorance.

Wisdom in a nutshell, my version:

Keeping true to the wisdom that cause is unknown prevents the suffering of self consciousness (good and evil consciousness) because the intellect has been starved of its ignorant seeking for and settling upon an assumed cause.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

The more we talk about wisdom the more we reveal our ignorance for what we don’t know is the path to wisdom is also the path to ignorance. So, where do we go from here? Any suggestions?

If I'd try to work with that, I'd say this is realizing the limitations of knowledge, what we really know about the universe, why we are the way we are, why we need what we think we need, what there's to know ultimately and what the good of that is, or the good of any knowing or reason to exist beyond desiring so. This includes any insight into any spiritual nature, moral truths, the ultimate consequence of our actions and any assertion "this is true".

That's a first step to understanding that truth is relativity. Although keep in mind that the mind is geared towards knowledge, to opening venues, to desiring insight and expand its reach. It's delusional to suppress or prevent this. It would be like hurting ones legs as not to walk any more or poke out ones eyes, as not to see further. Of course if one is certain this is the only big attachment left, it might cause liberation of some fixation.

As for the question "where do we go from here", I'd suggest not going anywhere at all. Any direction implies goal, each goal implies meaning, each meaning is born inside a context where many connections formed a pattern, a theme, a tune to move by. Then I suppose you could hum along?

[jufa]

To believe relativism's variety preaches truth over precise individual experience, of just one occurrence, is man's self produced disorder, and a dance with the devil, especially when resistance, by words, lack comprehension of Spirit's identity. When one states

a first step to understanding that truth is relativity

it is a pretentious self-righteous dance of ignorance based in human indoctrination of ideologies, and hand me down beliefs of relativism non-compromising rigor words. What does words and ideas matter if trails of potential conscious advancement are hindered by one who has been instilled in collectivism and cannot reach individual revelation of their own?

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Pam Seeback]

To believe relativism's variety preaches truth over precise individual experience, of just one occurrence, is man's self produced disorder, and a dance with the devil, especially when resistance, by words, lack comprehension of Spirit's identity. When one states

a first step to understanding that truth is relativity

it is a pretentious self-righteous dance of ignorance based in human indoctrination of ideologies, and hand me down beliefs of relativism non-compromising rigor words. What does words and ideas matter if trails of potential conscious advancement are hindered by one who has been instilled in collectivism and cannot reach individual revelation of their own?

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

Truth is relativity and the doctrine of relativism are related, but they are not the same understanding. Relativity is the truth that there is no external conscious absolute subject whereas relativism presupposes an existing/external conscious subject in relation to the objects of culture, history, society (the morality of good and evil). It is this ignorant belief in the existence of a subject that causes the ignorance of relativism (collectivism/ideology. You speak of the revelation of the individual, but of course, of the wisdom of Spirit, no such individual exists. It is necessary to think of individuality while awakening to the wisdom of Spirit, but once awakened, the notion of individuality 'naturally' falls away.

If by the identity of Spirit you are referring to the wisdom that Spirit is the causation of every moment of awareness, this wisdom does not exclude the wisdom of relativity. Why? Because no moment of Spirit's causality of awareness is absolute. If it were, Spirit's eternal dance of causality would cease in that absolute moment of awareness. Bottom line is that as long as the causality of awareness is present, things (including wisdom of Spirit) appear of their relative nature (wisdom of Spirit in relation to ignorance of Spirit).

What is caused beyond the the relativity of Spirit awareness is not (yet?) revealed - for obvious reasons.

[jufa]

Thank you Pam for

Truth is relativity and the doctrine of relativism are related, but they are not the same understanding. Relativity is the truth that there is no external conscious absolute subject whereas relativism presupposes an existing/external conscious subject in relation to the objects of culture, history, society (the morality of good and evil). It is this ignorant belief in the existence of a subject that causes the ignorance of relativism (collectivism/ideology,

but attempting to address this subject matter beyond intellectual, metaphysical spiritualism, you must come out of your head. As you have demonstrated herein, people only know what has been forwarded by writings, images of other people's experiences of joy or pain, peace or chaos, love or hate, harmonious thinking, or confused thoughts, and personal idealism relative to communal acceptance or rejection of their societal beliefs. The subtly of either acceptance or rejection of society's beliefs, statures, and by-laws leads to conformance rape of the mind of righteous Spirit people of integrity. However, if "the light that lightest every man who cometh into the world" has not centered the pendulum of shed blood and ignorant thoughts of superiority, nothing will stop war demons who rip the heart of the land and souls of hope, nor alter the demeaning Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde tug-of-war continuously jousting for dominance of ones willpower..

The pendulum of the mind oscillate between sense and non sense, not right and wrong. Carl Yung

Our minds should be prepared to recognize, to revise, and if possible, to increase the accuracy of the Inevitable wrong desire of ego to explain and correct, beyond relativism's relativistic experiences which eliminate confused directions the law of mind preach as the way life. It is an admission of infected ignorance when one mind thinks it can apply its whims of certain to another mind. What knowledge and words can a finite mind apply of fragmented bits and pieces of that which its sees as bits and pieces, when knowledge of good and evil has no beginning nor end to differentiate, or words have a thousand meanings? Especially when the mind knows only things other men have expanded, concerning adventures in living, and passed forward for acceptance or rejection by the preceding generations in hope someone will find the door to open, beyond the mind, step through, and burst the bubble which deny the Mystical "I in the midst of thee am mighty" to be their true Identity?

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Pam Seeback]

jufa, going beyond relativism takes one into tbe silence of thought wherein it is made clear that nothing of which man is conscious is permanent or absolute, nothing...not his naming, not his experiences of pleasure, pain, not even his consciousness of spiritual love/fire/bliss. If you can speak of one thing or experience that defies the truth of the interdependence of phenomena of consciousnesd, speak it now.

Spirit cannot be concretized. It seems as if this is what you are trying to do (stating that Spirit had an identity).

[Diebert van Rhijn]

To believe relativism's variety preaches truth over precise individual experience, of just one occurrence, is man's self produced disorder, and a dance with the devil, especially when resistance, by words, lack comprehension of Spirit's identity. When one states "a first step to understanding that truth is relativity" it is a pretentious self-righteous dance of ignorance based in human indoctrination of ideologies, and hand me down beliefs of relativism non-compromising rigor words. What does words and ideas matter if trails of potential conscious advancement are hindered by one who has been instilled in collectivism and cannot reach individual revelation of their own?

As Pam suggested, this was more about the subjective experience when it comes to existence, to assert or discuss any truth value in that context. Scientific truths are extremely contextual, they do not address the complete experience of a self, a world or a meaning.

But lets start at the beginning. What are those "precise individual experiences"? They turn out not to be precise, actually it's their very nature to be not precise and ambiguous, to be able to address our sense of reality. One could argue that for some people, their purpose becomes to cover up the ambiguity with inherent certainties, truths and beliefs. This is the curse of the superficial dweller, the lost ghost, the wandering Jew to walk and inhabit the Earth in denial, which will even form a world by being in opposition to reality. Now a defense has to follow...

[jufa]

Pam-Diebert,

Going beyond relativism is the purpose for pursuing ones identity in 'That' which has no name, thought, feeling, or concept knowable to man, but is the reality of reality. Reality is life beyond relativism, and your presence defines that life. Your life does not move, it is concretized in the oneness of what you are. You are life. You are one life, one conscious, one substance, one essence, and you do not move out of you. You are concretized.

God is Life, and Life does not move. Where can Life move to? It is omnipresent. Consciousness is life, and Consciousness does not move. Where can it move to? It is omniscient, and omnipresent. Divine Thoughts is life, and divine Thoughts do not move. Where can They move to? They are omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. But the omnipresent Spirit of Life moves. Just as the omniscient Spirit of Consciousness moves, as well as the omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent Spirit of divine Thoughts moves. But Spirit movement is the omniety energy of life's potential which flows as the core of one infinite unchanging world that you, and I live in beyond relativism. Tell me, what has changed, or altered the flow of your life being lived as the one life you are?

All the foundation of the heaven, earth, night, day, plant life, sun, moon, stars, animal life, the living creatures, and man. All this is created, and formed within the Godhead. and there's never a separation of God's creation from the Godhead. This is why man is told "in God we live, and move, and have our being."

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Pam Seeback]

Going beyond relativism is the purpose for pursuing ones identity in 'That' which has no name, thought, feeling, or concept knowable to man, but is the reality of reality. Reality is life beyond relativism, and your presence defines that life. Your life does not move, it is concretized in the oneness of what you are. You are life. You are one life, one conscious, one substance, one essence, and you do not move out of you. You are concretized.

How can you understand yourself to be concretized (concrete is one of the hardest substances on earth) and ask me "tell me, what has changed, or altered the flow of your life being lived as the one life you are?"

God is Life, and Life does not move. Where can Life move to? It is omnipresent. Consciousness is life, and Consciousness does not move. Where can it move to? It is omniscient, and omnipresent. Divine Thoughts is life, and divine Thoughts do not move. Where can They move to? They are omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. But the omnipresent Spirit of Life moves. Just as the omniscient Spirit of Consciousness moves, as well as the omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent Spirit of divine Thoughts moves. But Spirit movement is the omniety energy of life's potential which flows as the core of one infinite unchanging world that you, and I live in beyond relativism. Tell me, what has changed, or altered the flow of your life being lived as the one life you are?

It seems to me as if you have separated relativism (ignorance of the flow) from the flow of the energy of Spirit, how is this possible? Does this not contradict what you are saying here:

All the foundation of the heaven, earth, night, day, plant life, sun, moon, stars, animal life, the living creatures, and man. All this is created, and formed within the Godhead. and there's never a separation of God's creation from the Godhead. This is why man is told "in God we live, and move, and have our being."

Is not reality inclusive of all that is experienced of, and in, the Godhead, even if it is of ignorance of the Godhead (relativism)? Was it not your experience of relativism (of the flow of That which has no name) that awakened you to the infinite energy flow of That which has no name? Like me, you may no longer identify with the flow of relativism, but that does not mean relativism is literally beyond, as if external to the reality of the nameless That.

If you leave one experience out of the flow, then you deny the Godhead of infinite things.

[jufa]

Pam asked,

How can you understand yourself to be concretized (concrete is one of the hardest substances on earth) and ask me "tell me, what has changed, or altered the flow of your life being lived as the one life you are?"

The answers are in the questions. If you do not realize you are the only life of you that has ever been, that will ever be, you have no understanding to understand you are absolutely you. You are the concrete which holds your substance and essence law which governed your life in the invisible, and now in the visible, but not in anyway from anything of your creation. There is nothing about your Spirit of life which has been altered or changed from the invisible to the visible. Life is everywhere you are in conscious thinking, and flesh manifestation whether you aware of it or not, or whether you understand it or not. That is saying you don't matter, nor your understanding, for life, your life has never changed from the principle pattern life's intent and purpose, for only life is in this place.

Pam states,

It seems to me as if you have separated relativism (ignorance of the flow) from the flow of the energy of Spirit, how is this possible? Does this not contradict what you are saying here:

What seems to be to you also does not matter. Spirit has no choice, or option within the Godhead but to flow as the energized will of God's Vision, Intent, Purpose, and Thought. I repeat, Spirit has no choice, or option concerning the energized flow of God Spirit, for Spirit is all this is. Relativism is, therefore, a mirage you have accepted as your reality of choices to choose of the uncountable human varieties of that which has not substance and essence to maintain itself except by the energy you give of your Spirit of life. However, your choices will never dwells within the Godhead, for God is One concretized Spirit. There is no room in God except for those who return to the flow of their substance and essence, which is Spirit. Man has no choice to choose anything then, not even to return to the flow of what they are. They must be absorbed back into their own energy of their emanation of Spirit's creation . So where does man live outside of Spirit, except in his mirage of thoughts? And what Choice does man truly have, or represent which is not of Spirit when Spirit changes (concretized)not?

Pam also states,

Is not reality inclusive of all that is experienced of, and in, the Godhead, even if it is of ignorance of the Godhead (relativism)? Was it not your experience of relativism (of the flow of That which has no name) that awakened you to the infinite energy flow of That which has no name? Like me, you may no longer identify with the flow of relativism, but that does not mean relativism is literally beyond, as if external to the reality of the nameless That.

If you leave one experience out of the flow, then you deny the Godhead of infinite things.

We become locked into a certain way of living, believing, acknowledging, and expressing not what is the truth of our Beings, but only one degree of the three hundred and sixty degree circle of eternality. And in expressing this one degree, we believe we are doing something humane and spiritual. But the reality of it all is we are only expressing the egocentric consciousness of our small selves we have believed we are. The human mind will keep us in this belief. It is called Egypt slavery. And living in this dimensional frame, never will we realize Spirit must set us free from being hypnotized relativistic to anything other than the source of life we are, and that is Spirit.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Pam Seeback]

jufa, how about this nutshell? There is only That with no name That is named for the sake of communication.

[jufa]

jufa, how about this nutshell? There is only That with no name That is named for the sake of communication.

jufa staes---Existence is beyond the power of words
To define:
Terms may be used
But are none of them absolute.
In the beginning of heaven and earth there were no words,
Words came out of the womb of matter. Lao Tzu

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Pam Seeback]

jufa, how about this nutshell? There is only That with no name That is named for the sake of communication.

jufa staes---Existence is beyond the power of words
To define:
Terms may be used
But are none of them absolute.
In the beginning of heaven and earth there were no words,
Words came out of the womb of matter. Lao Tzu

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

What Lao Tzu said above, by his own words, is not true. Which is also my experience and understanding. Which means my words and your words are not true. Which brings us full circle to the realization that man's truth (of God's design) = relativity. What to 'do' now that we know the truth about the glitch in God's communication software? A sane and reasonable question I believe was asked earlier, but of course, a sane and reasonable question with no absolute answer.

No wonder Job was angry with God.

[jufa]

jufa, how about this nutshell? There is only That with no name That is named for the sake of communication.

jufa staes---Existence is beyond the power of words
To define:
Terms may be used
But are none of them absolute.
In the beginning of heaven and earth there were no words,
Words came out of the womb of matter. Lao Tzu

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

Pam replied....What Lao Tzu said above, by his own words, is not true. Which is also my experience and understanding. Which means my words and your words are not true. Which brings us full circle to the realization that man's truth (of God's design) = relativity. What to 'do' now that we know the truth about the glitch in God's communication software? A sane and reasonable question I believe was asked earlier, but of course, a sane and reasonable question with no absolute answer.

No wonder Job was angry with God.

You have not just discovered this. You became aware words have no meaning, are not the truth when you read"

“And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. Beware lest any man should spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiment of the world, and not after Christ.” And "From a mind not ordained by God, matter is the only reality it can confirm, yet, even in this confirmation it is an elusive human thought belief. Man believes his mind to be his possession, and what he is aware of is real, thus man's separated from the invisible reality of being one with and God as God's expression of original substance, essence, intent, purpose, and will. This is the mind which makes men strangers to the reality of themselves, and cause them to live within, and among the shadows of their own false interpreted thought images, words, pictures, and the material of impermanent."

And finally,

"All images and forms projected by the human conscious enter into the incubator of the human imagination. It is within the human imagination where all human images and forms find their substance of body in words, pictures and vision of human intellectual logic. When there is no logic or reasoning to present evidence how the form of flesh man appeared in a Spirit universe, the human mind can cease to tell itself how the existence of the universe came into form, and speculative idealism becomes truth."

So now who are you attempting to convince this is just being revealed? Here, re-read my first reply to this subject

"What you have suggested about spiritual path to enlightenment is poppycock. You have presented some other persons concept, which is not your direct experience, which means you are not telling the truth but speaking "with tremendous simplicity and depth" hearsay."

Does not these words communicate to you you are just now catching up, that you missed the gut of this entire post. True or False according to your human understanding?

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Pam Seeback]

jufa: Does not these words communicate to you you are just now catching up, that you missed the gut of this entire post. True or False according to your human understanding?

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

My (relative) human understanding in contrast to what? Your having been ordained by the God of the absolute invisible? My intent is not to show disrespect, but to let you know that I do not believe in absolute/invisible ordination of or by, invisible spirit that instead, that spirit and form (matter) are always and always will be, indivisible. Therefore, from my perspective, it would be counterproductive for both of us for me to answer what I consider to be a damned-if-I-do, damned-if-I-don't, self-serving question. Adios my friend-on-the-journey, I wish you the best!

[jufa]

Pam ask: My (relative) human understanding in contrast to what?


"You Treat a Person" -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDEjgOFOLho

"Final Appeal" -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXWDSeVeaAE

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

[Tofara_Moyo]

Is QSR philosophy beneficial to the believer. Do its benefits stem from its philosophical basis, or on the application of belief in its philosophical basis. if the latter does it really matter if the philosophical basis is sound in order to get the benefits? Could i not be attached to anything for the effect it has on me as opposed to because of A=A.