What is the fundamental question?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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ardy
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What is the fundamental question?

Post by ardy »

Hi all, I am interested in this question and would like to know what you think?

Try to stay on this one as the results are of some interest to me as I am trying to distill what I think down to something.

天地与我同根,The cosmos and I are fundamentally the same,
万物与我一体. The universe and I are of a single body

This sums up how I feel but does not answer the fundamental question......
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by Pam Seeback »

ardy, I don't know what your fundamental question is, but what came to my mind after reading your statement about the cosmos and you being fundamentally the same is that the cosmos and you are both the same and not-the-same. Which makes my fundamental question (I prefer the term "existence" to "cosmos"): "what is the relationship between the existence of the six-sense consciousness, the inferred I, and its unseen 'ground'?"
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

The fundamental of every question is opposition. Or in terms of the dialectic: antithesis.

With every position, there's an anti-position created like a shadow. This is how creation appears.
天地与我同根,The cosmos and I are fundamentally the same,
万物与我一体. The universe and I are of a single body

This sums up how I feel but does not answer the fundamental question......
It does position some "unity" and with that comes the question of why you're not, fundamentally, the same. You birthed it, you own it.
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by ardy »

movingalways wrote:ardy, I don't know what your fundamental question is, but what came to my mind after reading your statement about the cosmos and you being fundamentally the same is that the cosmos and you are both the same and not-the-same. Which makes my fundamental question (I prefer the term "existence" to "cosmos"): "what is the relationship between the existence of the six-sense consciousness, the inferred I, and its unseen 'ground'?"
Hi Movingalways: My view is that the six senses are the traps that bind us and the inferred [false] I is the result of that trap. The unseen ground, if I understand you correctly, is the reality that underpins everything, but is never seen by us and even more rarely trodden by us.
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by ardy »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:The fundamental of every question is opposition. Or in terms of the dialectic: antithesis.

With every position, there's an anti-position created like a shadow. This is how creation appears.

It does position some "unity" and with that comes the question of why you're not, fundamentally, the same. You birthed it, you own it.
The antithesis is just a shadow, as you say, but it takes you nowhere too smart. It is just another tie to bind you. I agree it is very strange that we are not the same as what we came from, still from the one thing comes the multitude, and I have never been able to get my head around it, I just accept it as true.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

ardy wrote:The antithesis is just a shadow, as you say, but it takes you nowhere too smart.
On the contrary! :)
It is just another tie to bind you.
Or just another way to say that the bind is "you", nothing else.
I just accept it as true.
All faith is egotistic.
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by ardy »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
ardy wrote:The antithesis is just a shadow, as you say, but it takes you nowhere too smart.
On the contrary! :)
It is just another tie to bind you.
Or just another way to say that the bind is "you", nothing else.
I just accept it as true.
All faith is egotistic.
Disagree with everything you say, and do, and think, and espouse, except - 'all faith is ego', which is most probably true. Come to think of it 'the bind is me' has a bit of a ring to it, but I will not move on antithesis. Absolutely NOT!
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by Pam Seeback »

ardy wrote:
movingalways wrote:ardy, I don't know what your fundamental question is, but what came to my mind after reading your statement about the cosmos and you being fundamentally the same is that the cosmos and you are both the same and not-the-same. Which makes my fundamental question (I prefer the term "existence" to "cosmos"): "what is the relationship between the existence of the six-sense consciousness, the inferred I, and its unseen 'ground'?"
Hi Movingalways: My view is that the six senses are the traps that bind us and the inferred [false] I is the result of that trap. The unseen ground, if I understand you correctly, is the reality that underpins everything, but is never seen by us and even more rarely trodden by us.
Is it possible that your belief that your six senses are traps is hindering your free-flowing movement of your spirit forms of your hidden void?
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Logic is an umbrella term designated on pieces/parts like first premise, second premise and conclusion.
logic isn't any one of those parts nor does it exist independent of those parts
the first premise can be analysed and found to comprise parts and so on
logic is mind-only
its certain that a mind conceives logic and the logic a mind conceives of is not certain despite all the brouhaha.
enlightenment is non-conceptual.
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by Kunga »

ardy wrote:Hi all, I am interested in this question and would like to know what you think?

Try to stay on this one as the results are of some interest to me as I am trying to distill what I think down to something.

天地与我同根,The cosmos and I are fundamentally the same,
万物与我一体. The universe and I are of a single body

This sums up how I feel but does not answer the fundamental question......

But even in Samādhi we are not completely one with the Cosmos. The final level of consciousness, Cosmic consciousness, can only be realised after death. Cosmic consciousness means to be one with the entire Universe, with every atom, and this is not possible on the physical level. As soon as the Supreme Consciousness begins to expand towards Cosmic Consciousness the earthly existence draws to a close. The body is “taken off” like an old article of clothing, whether through illness or peacefully passing away.

http://www.chakras.net/samadhi



My experiences relate more with this stuff, not my choice....just happened....
Maybe your fundamental question will be answered when you "die" ?
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by windhawk »

I'm none too certain what the fundamental question may be (too many ego posits), but I do know that the fundamental answer is to gain knowledge, and learn to love fellow man.

Hillbillies may not be too keen on smarts, but they sure know how to cook, and party!

There is absolutely no need to drink moonshine; the idea is to understand why for some folks it is a necessity.

The list goes on...
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by Cahoot »

The fundamental answer precedes and reveals the fundamental question.
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by Pam Seeback »

ardy wrote:Hi all, I am interested in this question and would like to know what you think?

Try to stay on this one as the results are of some interest to me as I am trying to distill what I think down to something.

天地与我同根,The cosmos and I are fundamentally the same,
万物与我一体. The universe and I are of a single body

This sums up how I feel but does not answer the fundamental question......
ardy, I'll throw this out to you for discussion if you so wish to discuss, using biblical metaphors to illustrate how you and the universe are both the same and different:

The Father is the Universe of all things. However, the Father does not know this until the Son knows this. The way Jesus understood the unconscious-conscious relationship of Father and Son was "I and the Father are One." That is, until the Son becomes conscious of the Father of all things, the light of wisdom, the Father remains in the dark of His ignorance of being all things. Having ignorance of the Father is defined by way of identity by Jesus as "I was Son of Man" whereas having wisdom of the Father is defined by way of identity by Jesus as "I am Son of God".
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by ardy »

movingalways wrote: ardy, I'll throw this out to you for discussion if you so wish to discuss, using biblical metaphors to illustrate how you and the universe are both the same and different:

The Father is the Universe of all things. However, the Father does not know this until the Son knows this. The way Jesus understood the unconscious-conscious relationship of Father and Son was "I and the Father are One." That is, until the Son becomes conscious of the Father of all things, the light of wisdom, the Father remains in the dark of His ignorance of being all things. Having ignorance of the Father is defined by way of identity by Jesus as "I was Son of Man" whereas having wisdom of the Father is defined by way of identity by Jesus as "I am Son of God".
Hi Movingalways: I understand what you are saying, but the confusion this relationship raises creates more thinking than it closes down. The simplicity of being a part of the universe runs through me deeply, and I know it and feel it at the same time. It is only when I become a 'son of man' that the holes begin in the harmony of the universe. The frustrations and misunderstandings we go through in trying to 'relate' to someone else, yet knowing that they know nothing about you, is confounded by the social game.

It seems no surprise to me why people move away from other humans and live in the mountains. If you let go and speak the truth [as you see it] then a wooden cross or more likely, ostracization is the norm. The best we can achieve is some like us, and some hate us, and some jump from one thought of us to another.

The idea that the universe does not recognise you until you recognise it, has a ring of truth to it. The hard part is finding someone to talk to about this sensibly.
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by Pam Seeback »

ardy, I added two thoughts from an older post that relate to my response to this most recent post:
ardy: My view is that the six senses are the traps that bind us and the inferred [false] I is the result of that trap.
Logic then dictates that when the inferred I drops away, the senses cease being a trap.
The unseen ground, if I understand you correctly, is the reality that underpins everything, but is never seen by us and even more rarely trodden by us.
The unseen ground is symbolic of the unconscious Father that causes everything to be made conscious including the inferred false I and the dropping away of the same. Given that it is the cause of everything, it is seen by us of its effects. This is what Jesus meant when he said “if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.”
movingalways: The Father is the Universe of all things. However, the Father does not know this until the Son knows this. The way Jesus understood the unconscious-conscious relationship of Father and Son was "I and the Father are One." That is, until the Son becomes conscious of the Father of all things, the light of wisdom, the Father remains in the dark of His ignorance of being all things. Having ignorance of the Father is defined by way of identity by Jesus as "I was Son of Man" whereas having wisdom of the Father is defined by way of identity by Jesus as "I am Son of God".
Hi Movingalways: I understand what you are saying, but the confusion this relationship raises creates more thinking than it closes down.
As I see it, it's not that thinking is to be closed down, only that once it is liberated of the inferred I, that the unattached thinking I of the Father and Son shines forth. Until this happens, of course, there is a period of unsettling that causes one to think they are more confused than when they first began their quest for truth.
The simplicity of being a part of the universe runs through me deeply, and I know it and feel it at the same time. It is only when I become a 'son of man' that the holes begin in the harmony of the universe. The frustrations and misunderstandings we go through in trying to 'relate' to someone else, yet knowing that they know nothing about you, is confounded by the social game.
It seems no surprise to me why people move away from other humans and live in the mountains. If you let go and speak the truth [as you see it] then a wooden cross or more likely, ostracization is the norm. The best we can achieve is some like us, and some hate us, and some jump from one thought of us to another.
Since no two individuals stand in the same causal river twice, relating to one another is all we can expect. It's no secret that like minds are attracted to one another causing the possibility for expansion of wisdom understanding.
The idea that the universe does not recognise you until you recognise it, has a ring of truth to it. The hard part is finding someone to talk to about this sensibly.
It's more like the universe recognizes itself. As for finding someone to talk to about such things, here we are!
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by ardy »

ardy, I added two thoughts from an older post that relate to my response to this most recent post:
OK if its relevant who cares?
Logic then dictates that when the inferred I drops away, the senses cease being a trap.
If the senses cease being a trap then I have not recognised that as a part of my insight. Hope you are right though!
The unseen ground is symbolic of the unconscious Father that causes everything to be made conscious including the inferred false I and the dropping away of the same. Given that it is the cause of everything, it is seen by us of its effects. This is what Jesus meant when he said “if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.”
Or another way of saying 'How do I enter the Tao? Start anywhere, why not here?'
As I see it, it's not that thinking is to be closed down, only that once it is liberated of the inferred I, that the unattached thinking I of the Father and Son shines forth. Until this happens, of course, there is a period of unsettling that causes one to think they are more confused than when they first began their quest for truth.
That confusion, if you are referring to the loss of logic and the death of a structure around 'you', is a wonder and cuts you off from a part of our worldly nature. It takes you deeper into yourself. This has been my experience.
Since no two individuals stand in the same causal river twice, relating to one another is all we can expect. It's no secret that like minds are attracted to one another causing the possibility for expansion of wisdom understanding.
Yes but how rare is it? Do you have friends you can sit down and talk to about this stuff?

It's more like the universe recognizes itself. As for finding someone to talk to about such things, here we are!
Yes it is like you are allowed into a game that you never realised was going on. If I may correct you 'here we are' should be 'here I am'.

Warm regards Ardy...
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Hi ardy,
If the senses cease being a trap then I have not recognised that as a part of my insight. Hope you are right though!
How is your eating a pear to relieve your hunger a trap?
Or another way of saying 'How do I enter the Tao? Start anywhere, why not here?'
One does enter the Tao as they are already the Tao. A poem by Lao Tzu (italics mine):

What we look for beyond seeing
And call the unseen,
Listen for beyond hearing
And call the unheard,
Grasp for beyond reaching
And call the witheld,
Merge beyond understanding
In a oneness
Which does not merely give rise and give light,
But forever sends forth a succession of living things as mysterious
As the unbegotten existence to which they return.
That is why men have called them empty phenomena,
Meaningless images,
In a mirage
With no face to meet,
No back to follow.
Yet one who is anciently aware of existence
Is master of every moment,
Feels no break since beyond time
In the way life flows.

Existence is beyond the power of words
To define:
Terms may be used
But are none of them absolute.
In the beginning of heaven and earth there were no words,
Words came out of the womb of matter;
And whether a man dispassionately
Sees to the core of life
Or passionately
Sees the surface,
The core and the surface
Are essentially the same,
Words make them seem different
Only to express appearance.
If name be needed, wonder names them both:
From wonder into wonder
Existence opens.
That confusion, if you are referring to the loss of logic and the death of a structure around 'you', is a wonder and cuts you off from a part of our worldly nature. It takes you deeper into yourself. This has been my experience.
Mine as well and also of my experience is that when one returns from the wordless deep with knowledge of who they are minus their ego identity, words are picked up again. From Lao Tzu's poem:

The core and the surface
Are essentially the same,
Words make them seem different
Only to express appearance.
Yes but how rare is it? Do you have friends you can sit down and talk to about this stuff?
On the internet I have found many who are sincerely seeking their true nature. In my non-web life, sometimes when the moment is 'just right', there is a flash of a breakthrough in a conversation and it is a wonder to behold.
Yes it is like you are allowed into a game that you never realised was going on. If I may correct you 'here we are' should be 'here I am'.
:-)
Warm regards Ardy...
Likewise...
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by Glostik91 »

Hi ardy, let me just ask you something first.

Why post here asking what we think? Rather random is it not?
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by ardy »

Glostik91 wrote:Hi ardy, let me just ask you something first.

Why post here asking what we think? Rather random is it not?
Very true Glostick91 BUT you never know where some deep insight might come from. There are some people on this site who have done a fair amount of internal work and it shows. I would not post a question like this on any site, that would be nonsense.

Life is a constant search for those who have gained a deep insight and the hope of meeting someone who has broken through, crossed the river, drunk all the water in the Ganges, seen the morning star, hit the empty bamboo, opened the gateless gate or any of the other pointers in the wrong direction...

Deep knowledge is automatic and anyone with a grip on this question could answer it immediately. Unfortunately it is NOT me!
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by Glostik91 »

ardy wrote:
Glostik91 wrote:Hi ardy, let me just ask you something first.

Why post here asking what we think? Rather random is it not?
Very true Glostick91 BUT you never know where some deep insight might come from. There are some people on this site who have done a fair amount of internal work and it shows. I would not post a question like this on any site, that would be nonsense.

Life is a constant search for those who have gained a deep insight and the hope of meeting someone who has broken through, crossed the river, drunk all the water in the Ganges, seen the morning star, hit the empty bamboo, opened the gateless gate or any of the other pointers in the wrong direction...

Deep knowledge is automatic and anyone with a grip on this question could answer it immediately. Unfortunately it is NOT me!
Well I think you're on the right track. Philosophy is generally 1% answering questions and 99% figuring out what is the right question to ask. Indeed all sciences began originally as philosophy. As philosophers discovered the right questions, a science would be shelved off for direct focused study.

What I find interesting about your question is that it is a question about the most fundamental question. What is the very first question anyone can ask before starting out? Well it seems as if this very question itself has to be asked before anything else can be asked! "What is the most fundamental question?" must be the most fundamental question. In order to discover the fundamentals of truth, one must wonder about what to ask before anything else.
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

"What is the most fundamental question?" must be the most fundamental question.
Why not: why am I asking questions? Or perhaps: "how did I come about to ask at all"?

Then it seems that one has to arrive at a more fundamental position which is more like observation or a certain degree of awareness. Because to understand a "why" is to understand "nature" or some essential processing. Following the nature of ones questioning leads to many interesting observations and realizations. Not many of them are "questionable" because one observes here not a bunch of words using other words or concepts using other concepts. That would be simply missing the point when it comes to philosophy at least. But inquiry normally does start with a lot of words and question marks. Most people's worlds are made out of words and the best way to start examining that world is through the word itself. Of course it's not like people are normally realizing how much of their world relies on concepts and words, as it's usually paved over with emotional cream and fluff, having them even denying how all their things, bodies and feelings are still so conceptual in essence -- wide open to questioning!
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by ardy »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
"What is the most fundamental question?" must be the most fundamental question.
Why not: why am I asking questions? Or perhaps: "how did I come about to ask at all"?

Then it seems that one has to arrive at a more fundamental position which is more like observation or a certain degree of awareness. Because to understand a "why" is to understand "nature" or some essential processing. Following the nature of ones questioning leads to many interesting observations and realizations. Not many of them are "questionable" because one observes here not a bunch of words using other words or concepts using other concepts. That would be simply missing the point when it comes to philosophy at least. But inquiry normally does start with a lot of words and question marks. Most people's worlds are made out of words and the best way to start examining that world is through the word itself. Of course it's not like people are normally realizing how much of their world relies on concepts and words, as it's usually paved over with emotional cream and fluff, having them even denying how all their things, bodies and feelings are still so conceptual in essence -- wide open to questioning!
DvR - Why do I eat porridge in the morning instead of wheat bix will hardly bring about an understanding of nature. The question to ask requires a certain amount of understanding to frame the question. 'How did I come to ask at all' is more interesting and leads to speculation as to why some people have introspection and others seem devoid of any insights at all.

I always find it strange when someone says to me why would you take an interest in philosophy, Zen, the workings of the mind or any of the other stuff many on this site are interested in. And my question is why are they not interested?

Seems like a gulf opens up whenever I am chatting to someone and slip off my light and amusing normal 'cods wallop' chat and slip into something more interesting.

I agree that people have some very strange ideas about who they are even on a superficial level. I am known to argue against fate and mostly women cannot resist biting at that bag of beans.
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by Glostik91 »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
"What is the most fundamental question?" must be the most fundamental question.
Why not: why am I asking questions? Or perhaps: "how did I come about to ask at all"?
Are those questions fundamental?

Justifications of legitimacy must precede any investigation.
Then it seems that one has to arrive at a more fundamental position which is more like observation or a certain degree of awareness. Because to understand a "why" is to understand "nature" or some essential processing. Following the nature of ones questioning leads to many interesting observations and realizations. Not many of them are "questionable" because one observes here not a bunch of words using other words or concepts using other concepts. That would be simply missing the point when it comes to philosophy at least. But inquiry normally does start with a lot of words and question marks. Most people's worlds are made out of words and the best way to start examining that world is through the word itself. Of course it's not like people are normally realizing how much of their world relies on concepts and words, as it's usually paved over with emotional cream and fluff, having them even denying how all their things, bodies and feelings are still so conceptual in essence -- wide open to questioning!
Ah yes I can agree that we must begin with raw observation, but a raw observation is not a question. So what exactly is the very first question one ought to ask concerning an investigation into anything? I think we ought to ask ourselves 'what is a good question to ask?' Like you said, 'not many [observations] are questionable.' Quite a good answer, but it seems to only narrow our scope and not exactly provide us with conclusivity. hmm what is a good question to ask if I want to know what the truth is?

(ps I do find the analytic tradition to be quite superior to the contintental tradition. just don't tell anybody otherwise I'll probably be banned by the nietzsche fanboys(btw nietzsche was insane))
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

ardy wrote:Why do I eat porridge in the morning instead of wheat bix will hardly bring about an understanding of nature.
That would depend. Questioning personal habits can lead to greater discoveries about ones own self or functioning. But it's closer to scientific inquiry here as one is questioning natural behavior which can be repeated, observed and made into a scientific subject. With philosophical questioning it usually is not possible to repeat, observe and create scientific inquiries although psychology and sociology do try but mostly by creating theory by a plausible narrative and a web of references.
The question to ask requires a certain amount of understanding to frame the question. 'How did I come to ask at all' is more interesting and leads to speculation as to why some people have introspection and others seem devoid of any insights at all.
Yes, questions can only arise out of a particular context. All meaning does too and so does all questioning of meanings. That's why sometimes people say the answer lies within the question but this just points to the shared context where question as well as answer resides in.
Why some people question themselves and others not, well, my own speculation and observation would be that questions are a painful affair, especially when not used to it. It needs some desire to cut where it might hurt and that might be an anomaly in human behavior. Certainly ones biology would not promote it! It also might be a form of violence or as the forum has it: a form of masculinity of mind.
I always find it strange when someone says to me why would you take an interest in philosophy, Zen, the workings of the mind or any of the other stuff many on this site are interested in. And my question is why are they not interested?
Many people would tell you they think these are fascinating topics but would warn for the lack of ability to "solve" anything or even approach an answer: the modesty of the common mind. As if there always needs to be a clear utility. That's why "self help" books are better understood when discussed in such cases.
Seems like a gulf opens up whenever I am chatting to someone and slip off my light and amusing normal 'cods wallop' chat and slip into something more interesting.
This is something that is part of all social life though. There's some cognitive dissonance when you have developed other modes of thinking, wider topics, greater agility and more sensitivity. Even without the philosophical topic one starts to feel like an alien. But this is only caused by our social conscience, this discomfort of being too different from our immediate environment. Even in biology it's understood most animals need some camouflage. Why attract attention from those who wouldn't like the difference and even perceive it as a threat? Mind you, inquiry and philosophy at some level are aggressive, painful activities. Why would that be welcomed at all? That said, it's also a matter of connecting to the right people as there are still enough people who love original, questioning and broad thinking minds. Frustration with the reception of others can also be an indication that the environment needs to change!
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Re: What is the fundamental question?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Glostik91 wrote:Justifications of legitimacy must precede any investigation.
Don't forget the legitimacy of asking questions and performing the inquiry. While normally "truth finding" could be a justification, that doesn't answer why that would be important. There's clearly a drive to reveal, to uncover. But while it's understood that is what is being valued, or just done, it's not beyond questioning.
Ah yes I can agree that we must begin with raw observation, but a raw observation is not a question. So what exactly is the very first question one ought to ask concerning an investigation into anything? I think we ought to ask ourselves 'what is a good question to ask?' Like you said, 'not many [observations] are questionable.' Quite a good answer, but it seems to only narrow our scope and not exactly provide us with conclusivity. hmm what is a good question to ask if I want to know what the truth is?
Well, there's not really a true, "pure" raw observation. The act of observing might already be called some kind of action. And there's already a question being "asked" and the reception of an answer to it being prepared. It's true these are proto-questions perhaps, but your "body", or whatever you call the immediate context of your mind, needs to know stuff too and most of the knowing (techne) happens beyond our philosophical moments. For example one needs to know how to be safe, if it's safe, how to expand without getting hurt too much, how to fix something broken or avoid a swamp. Simple inquiries into these happen all the time. And I do think it wonderfully arises out of some kind of context, a context of complexity, signals, exchanges and self-sustenance.
(ps I do find the analytic tradition to be quite superior to the contintental tradition. just don't tell anybody otherwise I'll probably be banned by the nietzsche fanboys(btw nietzsche was insane))
You're banned! Just to be safe only continentals, anything Norman-French really, will be allowed to remain ;)
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