What is your highest ideal?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Orenholt
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Orenholt »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:I didn't say it would, and 'brain' is a provisional name for an object of consciousness, it exists only in relation to all that it depends on, it is something seen, it is not the cause of your consciousness.
I agree that the brain is the name of an object of consciousness but most people here seem to think eliminating the concept of self WOULD eliminate suffering/desire/pleasure.

Explain how the brain is not the cause of your consciousness though.
Leyla Shen
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Leyla Shen »

The point is that there is a distinction being made between consciousness and suffering/desire/pleasure.

That is, "the brain" is an object of consciousness and NOT suffering/desire/pleasure.
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Orenholt
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Orenholt »

Leyla Shen wrote:The point is that there is a distinction being made between consciousness and suffering/desire/pleasure.

That is, "the brain" is an object of consciousness and NOT suffering/desire/pleasure.

Well yes, I'm aware that there is a difference but suffering/desire/pleasure come from the brain also.
But how can you be conscious without those things?

Even a tree can biologically "suffer" (not psychologically) from not having enough water or sunlight and it has no brain or sense of self whatsoever.
Pam Seeback
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Orenholt wrote:
Kunga wrote: ........so it is wise not to have preferences....
Isn't it better to prefer society's heroes (like firefighters) than society's villains (like thugs or corrupt politicians)?
Isn't it better to prefer healthy food (like salads) than unhealthy food (like a stick of margarine)?
Isn't it better to prefer a mate that's nice (like being honest and kind) than a mate that's cruel (like one that lies and hits you)?

It seems to me that having preferences is very wise.
Preferences divide your mind. A house divided cannot stand.
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Orenholt
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Orenholt »

movingalways wrote: Preferences divide your mind. A house divided cannot stand.
It's practical to have preferences though.

And I'm pretty sure that the quote you recited was in reference to politics....
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Leyla Shen »

It's practical to have preferences though.
So?
And I'm pretty sure that the quote you recited was in reference to politics....
So?
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Leyla Shen »

And,
Well yes, I'm aware that there is a difference but suffering/desire/pleasure come from the brain also.
SO?
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Leyla Shen
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Leyla Shen »

I repeat, Orehnolt:
The point is that there is a distinction being made between consciousness and suffering/desire/pleasure.
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Orenholt
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Orenholt »

So, so, so?

So that's what I think.
Leyla Shen
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Leyla Shen »

Exactly.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

movingalways wrote:Preferences divide your mind. A house divided cannot stand.
Undivided in that expression and everywhere else means acting on one thing over another. That is unison of action and mind.

To be torn apart with all the various possibilities is when a house collapses.

To have no possibilities at all means having no active mind. Which might solve a lot for many!
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Orenholt wrote:
movingalways wrote: Preferences divide your mind. A house divided cannot stand.
It's practical to have preferences though.

And I'm pretty sure that the quote you recited was in reference to politics....
What does 'pretty sure' have to do with truth?
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Orenholt
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Orenholt »

movingalways wrote:
What does 'pretty sure' have to do with truth?
My point is that it may not be applicable in this instance.

You shouldn't have to choose between practicality and anything else.
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Getoriks
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Getoriks »

Wisdom is my highest ideal.
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Orenholt
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Orenholt »

Getoriks wrote:Wisdom is my highest ideal.
That's definitely a good one. It's pretty all encompassing for the good attributes.

But I thought that your highest ideal was infinity. Is it not?
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Getoriks
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Getoriks »

Orenholt wrote:
Getoriks wrote:Wisdom is my highest ideal.
I thought that your highest ideal was infinity.
What's the difference?
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Orenholt
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Orenholt »

Getoriks wrote: What's the difference?
Wisdom means to be wise and wise means "having the power of discerning and judging properly as to what is true or right"
Infinity means the state of being infinite which means "Immeasurable, indefinite, or exceedingly large"
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Orenholt wrote:Explain how the brain is not the cause of your consciousness though.

Because the objective world, like a vision, is a manifestation of the mind itself.

How could an object of consciousness be the cause of consciousness? May as well identify with a leaf.
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Orenholt
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Orenholt »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:
Because the objective world, like a vision, is a manifestation of the mind itself.

How could an object of consciousness be the cause of consciousness? May as well identify with a leaf.
So you're saying that a concept cannot be manifest by a concept?
But a concept can be manifested by reality right?
Isn't a brain a manifestation of reality?
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

I don't remember saying that 'a concept cannot be manifest by a concept', not really sure what that means.

Yes the brain is 'a manifestation of reality', if your meaning is as simple as it sounds, everything is a manifestation of reality.
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Getoriks
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Getoriks »

Orenholt wrote:
Getoriks wrote: What's the difference?
Wisdom means to be wise and wise means "having the power of discerning and judging properly as to what is true or right"
Infinity means the state of being infinite which means "Immeasurable, indefinite, or exceedingly large"
What is true or right everywhere and everywhen, but Infinity? What is the Infinite, but the ultimate perspective from which one may have the power of proper discernment and judgement?
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Orenholt
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Orenholt »

Getoriks wrote: What is true or right everywhere and everywhen, but Infinity? What is the Infinite, but the ultimate perspective from which one may have the power of proper discernment and judgement?
True and right are qualities that infinity contains but infinity also contains falseness and wrongness.
How can infinity be subjectively ideal when it has things in it that aren't subjectively ideal such as war, poverty and disease?
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Getoriks
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Getoriks »

Orenholt wrote:
Getoriks wrote: What is true or right everywhere and everywhen, but Infinity? What is the Infinite, but the ultimate perspective from which one may have the power of proper discernment and judgement?
True and right are qualities that infinity contains but infinity also contains falseness and wrongness.
How can infinity be subjectively ideal when it has things in it that aren't subjectively ideal such as war, poverty and disease?
Freedom isn't free. Nor is it easy. What is most difficult? To know thyself. To he who does not know himself, the bliss of agape seems so agonizing, its warmth so freezing.
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Orenholt
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Orenholt »

Getoriks wrote: Freedom isn't free. Nor is it easy. What is most difficult? To know thyself. To he who does not know himself, the bliss of agape seems so agonizing, its warmth so freezing.
Could you speak in plainer terms instead of being poetic about it?

How can infinity be ideal when it has things in it that aren't ideal?
Would you say that a milkshake is ideal if it has brusslesprouts in it?
Pam Seeback
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Re: What is your highest ideal?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Orenholt wrote:
movingalways wrote:
What does 'pretty sure' have to do with truth?
My point is that it may not be applicable in this instance.

You shouldn't have to choose between practicality and anything else.
What does 'may not' or 'shouldn't have to' (speculation) have to do with ultimate reality, which is the focus of this board?

Can you use a word or words to suggest what you intuit to be the nature of ultimate reality and give reasons why you used that word or words? No speculation allowed. :-)

Finding the word that suggests ultimate reality, then understanding this word, and finally, being transformed of this understanding, for me, is the highest ideal.
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