GENIUS FORUMS

<t>It was not my intent to have written anything other than updates about the debate. However, Leo asked his question and I answered it. <br/> <br/> The tentative format will be 'four constructive posts' followed by 'four rebuttal posts'. The order: <br/> <br/> Constructive: <br/> David <br/> Robert...

<t>Leo, <br/> <br/> I will be appearing only as someone who reasons well and who has familiarity with the issues involved. I claim neither religious nor academic authority. I am not enlightened and if I was I wouldn't admit it. Whether or not I have any understanding bears not one iota on whether yo...

Thankee.

<t>Of 'QRS'? Do all three of you folks set up as being enlightened? Do you claim Buddhahood or something? To be Buddhas or Bodhisattvas? <br/> <br/> If all three of you are posing as enlightened men then I hope we can get all three of you into the debate to very publicly consider the nature of the e...

<t><br/> I didn't suggest it was falsified, Jim. But different translators translate materials differently, e.g., as through the eyes of their various schools. It could also matter whether the source is Chinese or Tibetan; I am not aware that there is any original Nagarjuna in Sanskrit. <br/> <br/> ...

<t><br/> Thank you, David. However you have failed to otherwise identity the work, including translator, source, and other identification, e.g., ISDN #, so the tract itself can be accessed and if necessary compared to other translations, sources, etc. Translations of a piece are not always the same ...

<t>Thanks, David. The Ponderer's Guild owner, Guildenstern, has tentatively agreed to host the debate and he makes the suggestions that there should be 1. a moderated debate; 2. no distractions in the debate thread, i.e., comments by others will be made in a separate thread; and 3. that the topic be...

"There is a lot of irony and double-play going on in this conversation. For example John and Robert both believe that truth does not reside in words, and yet they keep refering to scripture as though it were the last word on truth." John and Robert both believe that truth does not reside i...

By the way, what is this QRS thing?

<t><br/> I must sleep now; way past my bedtime in St. Louis, Missouri. (Olio has members on six continents; my co-founder is an Englishman living in Australia. We are looking for amusing penguins so we can have all seven continents represented.) <br/> <br/> When I get back I trust the Nagarjuna and ...

<t>I hope you do, John. (You're welcome too, Jim, if you won't talk about enlightenment. Everyone's welcome.) If we can get a few more people interested at Olio we can open up a forum for 'good talk' about Han-shan and Shih-ti, and burning the Buddha images to warm our butts, and "'What is the natur...

<t><br/> Jim, <br/> <br/> Don't worry about enlightenment in the sense of comparing it, there vs. here. If you can quantify it the way you just did you've got the wrong idea, at least according to what I've read. And you're anyway more likely to find enlightentenment taking your next pee than you ar...

<t>'Robert, when a person says that something is "true", it doesn't automatically mean they are deluded on that count, and it is irrational to think that it does. It fact, it reveals your own attachment to the word "true".' - Kevin <br/> <br/> It reveals no such attachment; that's an irrational conc...

<r>John, <br/> <br/> I'm beginning to feel like Hannibal. I own the place but I'll never win. Seriously, there are people who take them to be knowledgeable. Voce io has deluded himself, apparently, and the influence given him here cannot have helped. This is not a board I would want to spend real ti...

Kevin, if you're familiar with that school then you should be able to find some evidence backing up your position, shouldn't you?

<r>Quote:Quote:<hr>This is a common, lazy viewpoint. In reality, words and thoughts are perfectly capable of pointing the mind's attention to the nature of Truth. That is the reason why scriptures and sutras exist. - David Quinn<hr> <br/> When the Sutras and scriptures indicate words are not themsel...

Leo, see mine, 1/30/04 5:35 pm (I'm asking them to repudiate Nagarjuna who, if you are not familiar with him, is a 'biggie'. Keep at it long enough and they'll have reputiated Buddhism, Zen, and Taoism and probably truth, justice, and the American way just to keep their little game running, and then...

My impression of David's clinging to cause and effect derives from his ebook. If he insists his chapter on cause and effect is essential then I suggest he is clinging to it. Now does he insist it is essential, and why would it be so?

<t><br/> "That very statement is neither accurate nor complete. And that statement I just made is absolutely true." If you think you can get absolute truth into that little sentence, boy are you deluded. Truth is the void; no word gonna get there nor could it ever get back. <br/> <br/> Go back a few...

Kevin, use the link.

<r>Usually arguments about the relativity of words occur with those who support Western philosophical positions. One would not expect to find it here where folks are claiming enlightenment. They have apparently not done the reading. <br/> <br/> Consider Nagarjuna, an important figure in Mahayana Bud...

<t><br/> Kevin, I know the story as Hyakujo's Fox, in which a supposed master claims an enlightened man is beyond the law of causation and for which he's reborn 500 times as a fox. The story has a happy ending when he realizes the enlightened man is one with the law of causation. <br/> <br/> David Q...

<t><br/> With regard to David's attempts to cling to thought as the ground of truth, no one sufficiently educated in Buddhism or Taoism will take David's position to be accurate - or would agree he knows much of value. <br/> <br/> I suggest my writing here either has or has not had some efficacy, as...

<t><br/> David, <br/> <br/> To express truth via thought is impossible. Do you mean to tell me you don't understand it, that all we can do is draw second-hand pictures of at best relative usefulness? <br/> <br/> Have you never had a silent mind? If you still hear 'the monkey chattering' as Zen puts ...

<t>Quote:Quote:<hr>Enlightenment is not about unburdening from conceptualization. It is about experiencing true understanding and true thoughts. <br/> <br/> The concept of cause and effect, for example, when properly understood, is a true thought and needs to be protected against the false mythologi...